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Mr. Hood: How will it be possible to select an independent chair who is political but not party political, and who will do the selecting?
Mrs. McGuire: It has been made clear that the senior politician—if a politician is selected—will not be a serving politician. I hope that my hon. Friend will accept that the process of appointing the chair and members will involve consultation with the commissioner for public appointments.
I cannot emphasise too much—various Labour Members in particular have raised this issue—that the commission will make recommendations to the Secretary of State and the First Minister, after which the Secretary of State will decide on the Government's response. He will of course take account of the Executive's view, but, as the Secretary of State said on Second Reading, ultimately it will be for the House to decide. An independent commission will not be making decisions for the House. We have the legislative responsibility, and we will continue to exercise it. As for the time scale, the inquiry will start as soon as possible and will be expected to finish within 18 months to two years. The process has already begun.
Mr. Davidson: It is not clear to me whether the recommendations will consist of alternatives, or of a series pointing in the same direction.
Mrs. McGuire: What I am not prepared to do, and what we were not prepared to do on Second Reading, is anticipate exactly what the commission will come up with. If we establish an independent commission with a remit that, in my view, is quite broad but at the same time very focused—if that does not sound like a contradiction in terms—we must allow it to make the recommendations that it sees fit to make. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State assured the House on Second Reading, however, they will be recommendations, not proposals made on a "take it or leave it" basis. Ultimately, it will be for the House of Commons and Parliament in general to decide whether to enact whatever emerges from the recommendations.
Mrs. McGuire: There is another amendment that the Liberal Democrats would like to be dealt with, but I will give way.
Pete Wishart: I shall be very brief. The Secretary of State said that the commission would report to him and to the First Minister. The Minister has just said that its recommendations will then come to the House of Commons. Will they also go to the Scottish Parliament, which is the subject of these changes, for its approval and consent?
Mrs. McGuire:
The hon. Gentleman is again trying to put words into my mouth. What I said was that the commission will report to the Secretary of State and to the First Minister, and that the Secretary of State will
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then consider the recommendations—I have now said that three times. The Secretary of State will then decide on the Government's response, taking into account the Executive's view. If there is a need for any legislation, it will be the responsibility of this House, but that brings me—
Mr. Salmond: Will the hon. Lady give way?
Mrs. McGuire: Not at the moment because I want to deal with the issue of the commission and its membership.
We were extremely disappointed at the actions of the Leader of the Opposition—I cannot quite remember his constituency. [Hon. Members: "Folkestone and Hythe."] Right. In his letter, he states that he would not wish to participate in the establishment of the commission and that its establishment was "premature". That was reiterated by the hon. Member for Galloway and Upper Nithsdale (Mr. Duncan). I would have some, not sympathy but understanding for that position, were it not for the fact that, within 96 hours of the boundary commission report in respect of the new Dumfries and Galloway seat, the hon. Gentleman was acclaimed as a prospective parliamentary candidate for a seat that, according to parliamentary procedure, did not exist—we had not yet laid the order for the new boundaries for the Westminster Parliament. If the Conservatives are going to start to stand on principle, as they see it, they need to think through the logic of their argument. I suggest that logic and principle do not sit easily with the Conservatives.
Mr. Peter Duncan: Will the Minister give way?
Mrs. McGuire: As I have challenged the hon. Gentleman, I am delighted to give way.
Mr. Duncan: The Minister, without getting too hot under the collar, has to answer the simple question: if the commission is being set up to address primarily the issue of non-coterminous boundaries, why is it necessary to set it up now, prior to the Bill being passed by both Houses of Parliament?
Mrs. McGuire: We can find out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but I will come to the specific point that the hon. Gentleman has raised and deal with the commission's remit, which has exercised hon. Members over the past couple of hours.
Mr. Roy: Is it not a contradiction for a Member representing a constituency to call themselves a prospective parliamentary candidate before the legislation is passed here, yet speak differently in this Chamber?
Mrs. McGuire: That is the Conservatives for you.
The Government have to oppose the amendments. Our commitment since the announcement to the House on 18 December 2002 by my right hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Mrs. Liddell), then
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Secretary of State, on the future size of the Scottish Parliament has solely been to retain the current number of MSPs and the boundary structure of the Scottish Parliament.
Mrs. McGuire: I would like to make a little progress because we are running up against a timetable for Third Reading.
Mr. Salmond: Will the hon. Lady give way?
Mr. Salmond: I make two very quick points. First, a few seconds ago, the hon. Lady said the report would come back to the Secretary of State, who would take into account the opinion of the First Minister and the Executive. Did she mean the Scottish Parliament, or the Executive? Secondly, on something that is of interest across the Committee, is it the Government's intention that, if changes to the Scottish Parliament system are recommended, they will be in place in time for the next Scottish Parliament elections?
Mrs. McGuire: I said what I said and I will say it again; we have made no secret of this. The commission will make recommendations to the Secretary of State for Scotland and to the First Minister. The Secretary of State will then decide the Government's response, taking into account the Executive's view. That is the constitutional settlement, but I reassure the hon. Gentleman, before he gets in a twist, that the reality is that, of course, the commission will look to engage with Scottish politics and civic society. I would be astonished if MSPs—either individually or in groups—did not present evidence to the commission, which will take evidence from various people. This is becoming a bit tedious, but I repeat that the commission is expected to complete its work within 18 months to two years.
Mr. Hood: In response to the Scottish Affairs Committee report, the Government said that they wanted the commission to report back in time for 2007, but my hon. Friend has said that the commission may take 18 months to two years. It seems that there may be some flexibility and the commission may run over. Will she reassure the Committee that the commission's timetable will allow it to do its work and report back in time for the 2007 election?
Mrs. McGuire: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that he wanted the commission to start its work as quickly as possible and indicated that the anticipated time scale would be between 18 months and two years. I do not want to elaborate further on that.
I assure hon. Members that the fact that the Conservatives have refused to participate in the establishment of the commission will not mean that the commission's work and deliberations will be delayed. If we had to wait for the Conservative party to make up its mind on what it wants to do on devolution, we would be here until kingdom come.
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The amendments, even if redrafted to achieve the desired outcome of my hon. Friend the Member for Cunninghame, South, would create a radically different electoral system and would significantly reduce the proportionality in elections to the Scottish Parliament. I am not aware of any consensus or general support for the model that he and other hon. Friends propose.
Even if such a new electoral system for the Scottish Parliament were a valid and ultimately popular option, it is entirely premature for this proposed solution to perceived problems to be accepted. It was quite clear on Second Reading, and from the broader debate outside this House, that there is at present no consensus either between hon. Members or within civic Scotland on whether changing the electoral system to the Scottish Parliament is appropriate and, if so, what alternative arrangements should be introduced. We have heard a variety of options this evening.
We are of course not blind to the concerns raised by a variety of hon. Members, from the former Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts, through to the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond). We made it clear on Second Reading that we were aware of the difficulties that might follow from the operation of different boundaries for Westminster and Holyrood constituencies as a result of the passage of the Bill and from a reduction in the number of Scottish MPs. Indeed, that was why we welcomed the recent report by the Scottish Affairs Committee on the possible impact of non-coterminous boundaries on voters, party organisations, electoral administrators and others.
In response to the Select Committee report, the Scotland Office said:
"This will be an issue for the independent commission on boundary differences and voting systems to consider. The commission will examine inter alia the consequences of having different boundaries between Westminster and the Scottish Parliament constituencies for voter participation and representation of constituents by different tiers of elected members."
It is clear that that is part of the remit.
The Scottish Affairs Committee also commented on difficulties in relations between elected Members, the electorate and other bodies following the overlapping responsibilities of constituency and list Members of the Scottish Parliament. There is also the imminent prospect of four different voting systems operating in future Scottish elections—an issue alluded to by many hon. Members. That is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, after consulting the First Minister, announced that the commission would look at the consequences of different constituencies for Westminster and Holyrood elections, and that the Commission should be set up now and not left until after the Scottish Parliament elections in 2007 as previously planned.
I am pleased to report that work on achieving that is well advanced, in spite of the reluctance of the Conservative and Unionist party to participate. We have now received suggestions from political parties for members of the commission, and we are actively involved in the process of selecting the chairman, in consultation with the First Minister. We hope to announce the name of the chairman shortly.
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8.45 pm
As I have already said, the commission will be independent, and will consider the case for change and make recommendations. It will be the commission's task to look at all the matters that might give rise to the difficulties that hon. Members have identified. As we announced on Second Reading, the commission will examine the consequences of four different voting systems in Scotland and of different boundaries at Westminster and Holyrood. It will consider the implications for voter participation, the relationship between public bodies and authorities in Scotland and MPs and MSPs, and the representation of constituents by different tiers of elected members.
The commission will also be asked to make representations on whether the consequences of such matters require action to be taken on arrangements among elected representatives to ensure that constituents and organisations receive the best possible service. That links with the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Anniesland, who said that he wanted the freedom and liberty to do what he does best: to represent a constituency in his own area. The pattern of electoral boundaries in Scotland will also be part of the commission's remit, as will the relationship with other public bodies and authorities in Scotland and the method of voting in the Scottish parliamentary elections.
With all respect to hon. Members who have tabled amendments, I suggest that it is not now this House to which we should be directing our proposals and comments in the first instance, but the new commission on boundary differences and voting systems when it is established. It is precisely the issues that hon. Members have raised today that the commission will want to consider and weigh against alternative representations and options.
Devolution was achieved because of a remarkable degree of consensus across Scotland. As we have previously argued, there must be a degree of consensus throughout Scotland before any further changes to the electoral system for the Scottish Parliament are introduced. May I say, with great respect to colleagues, that the way in which the Scottish Parliament is constituted is not just a matter of concern for hon. Members, or even for political parties in Scotland. The electorate and civic society in Scotland, too, are entitled to have their say. The commission will be expected to carry out its remit through a wide-ranging consultation designed to achieve general support for any change. Having thus considered the various views and options, including those of hon. Members, it should reach its conclusions and make recommendations. Then, and only then, can we consider how best to proceed.
For those reasons, we cannot accept the amendments. I hope, however, that my response has given my hon. Friend the Member for Cunninghame, South enough confidence that the independent commission, in terms of both its remit and its timetable, will meet some of the concerns that he and other colleagues have raised. Having said that, I congratulate hon. Members on their contributions and on the thought that they have put into their proposals. I know that some concerns are deeply felt, and cut across party lines. Hon. Members have clearly set out an alternative view for elections to the
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Scottish Parliament, which has taken the debate forward and will be of immediate assistance to the commission when it begins its deliberations.
In the light of what I have said, I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Cunninghame, South will feel able to withdraw his amendment, and that the consequential amendments will not be pressed to a Division. We recognise the concerns that hon. Members have raised today. The independent commission, as some hon. Members have clearly identified, will give us the opportunity to discuss those concerns, maximise the consensus in Scotland and ensure that the Scottish Parliament, which has been built on consensus, will go forward on the basis of consensus. I ask my hon. Friend to withdraw his amendment.
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