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Mr. Duncan: I do not see any need for that process to take very long, and there would also be other ways to achieve that end—for example, by secondary legislation.
There are too many politicians in Scotland, the cost of the Parliament is burgeoning and the cost of the Executive is exploding. Administration costs have risen by £95 million in the past seven years. Ministerial cars have increased from eight to 14 in the same period. Staff numbers in the press office have increased from 60 to 90 and by more than 1,000 in the Executive office in the same period. The Government north of the border is exploding in size and quantity. The Scottish Conservative and Unionist party believes in small Parliaments and in small government.
The political landscape in Scotland is clear, with one party—the Scottish Tories—committed to delivering smaller government for Scotland. All the others have become addicted to the bureaucracy and softened by the waste, so that they are unable to contemplate a devolved Scotland being governed by any fewer than 129 MSPs. Would that have been any different had the original number been 200 or 250? We have no way of knowing. The simple truth is that political parties have become consumed by their own importance. They have forgotten the interests of the man in the street, who is tired of Scotland's over-governing and is demonstrating that in declining turnouts in elections. Who would have thought that fewer than one in two would vote in the second elections to the new Scottish Parliament, which—the Government were keen to point out—had
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been anticipated for 300 years? Four years on, and less than half the population wished to participate in the second election. That was due in part to the issues addressed in the Bill: Scotland has too many politicians and the public know it.
We will oppose the Bill tonight. It is an unnecessary piece of legislation, and the Scotland Act 1998 should be implemented in full. I was pleased to receive the support of some Labour Members in an earlier Division on amendments that would have delayed the implementation of the Bill. I hope that more will have the confidence to back with their support in the Lobby their significant support for our view in the Chamber.
9.17 pm
Mr. Davidson: The hon. Member for Galloway and Upper Nithsdale (Mr. Duncan) asked for support in the Lobby tonight, but that would be to vote for a cut in the number of MSPs from 129 to a much lower figure. No Back Bench Labour Member would do that. We have criticisms of the electoral system, but we do not want to destroy it. We want to be more constructive and to improve and enhance the Scottish Parliament.
I regret the fact that we have had such a narrow debate about the Scottish Parliament today and recognise that that was because the Bill was deliberately drawn so narrowly by the Government as to preclude wider discussion. That was a major mistake. We should not be so defensive about the work of the Scottish Parliament that we are afraid to have a debate about its activities. Its work has been overwhelmingly positive. The media in Scotland have focused on some negative aspects, but the Parliament has achieved far more for Scotland in its relatively brief life than we could have reasonably expected, and it will continue to do so. It will build on the success that it has achieved so far in a way that justifies the faith that I and so many of my hon. Friends had in devolution, even when it was a minority position.
I turn again to the commission, as it seems to be an integral part of the Government's position. The more I listen to the Minister, the more I cannot help feeling that we have been sold a pig in a poke, because there is no chance that anything resulting from the commission will be implemented in time for the 2007 elections.
We are in May 2004. It is suggested that the commission will take a minimum of 18 months for its work, so that takes us, at the earliest, to November 2005, which is less than 18 months before the next elections to the Scottish Parliament. We are led to believe that during those 18 months it will be possible to consider the commission's report, set up a dialogue with the Scottish Parliament and other interested parties before we come to a decision and then put that decision into legislation. Even after the legislation is passed, boundary changes will have to be considered and implemented.
All that leads me to believe that it is inconceivable that anything from the commission will be in place in time for elections in 2007. I am willing to wager a modest amount with anyone in the Chamber who thinks otherwise. I look forward to discussing the matter with anyone who assiduously supports the Government in all things to see whether anyone is daft enough to put their money where their vote will go. It is clear that there is no chance that any changes can be in place by 2007, so in
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those circumstances it would be much better to be honest with the people of Scotland and say, "This is something for 2011, so we shall take our time and do it thoroughly."
We have also been told that the commission will look at relationships with other public bodies, which will take us into something altogether different. I am not entirely clear about what it means but I am sure that in due course it will be an alibi for delay. If anyone wants to wager a fiver or an amount in any other currency, I shall be happy to take them on, but the fact that no one is leaping forward to take my wager is an indication that my money would be safe if I were to make it.
Finally, I want to think out loud on behalf of people in my constituency Labour party and in the Labour party in Scotland, especially in Glasgow, about what we should do now in preparation for the next set of Scottish elections under the existing system, particularly in relation to the second ballot. It is clear that voting Labour in the second ballot in Glasgow and in several other areas will be an utter waste of time. We cannot justifiably ask people to waste their vote when there is no prospect of gaining any seats as a result of that vote, unless we lose five of the 10 first-past-the-post seats. If, as we get closer to the election, it looks as though we might lose five of those 10 seats, I might revise my opinion. However, it is likely that we shall win at least eight or nine seats; I expect us to win 10, but even if we slip a little, the second vote will still be wasted. We cannot in good conscience ask people deliberately to waste their vote in the second ballot. We need to have something more constructive to say.
I shall support the Government tonight, even though I regret this missed opportunity both to defend the work of the Scottish Parliament and to seek constructive improvements to the electoral system. Nevertheless, we are where we are, so, with considerable reluctance, I shall support the Government.
9.24 pm
John Thurso: This small Bill is simple and straightforward. None the less, it has given rise to serious points and it is right that we had the opportunity to debate them.
As an interim measure, the Bill will do the job that it sets out to do. It was introduced because a simple mistake was made in 1998, about which both the Conservative Opposition and the Liberal Democrats warned the Government. The mistake was thinking that, as the Parliament was set up with a set number of MSPs, no one could possibly seek to change that number less than six years after it was set up. We are here today because that mistake has been recognised and needs to be rectified.
What I find extraordinary—bearing in mind the late Lord MacKay of Ardbrecknish's cogent arguments, which have been mentioned already today—is the complete reversal that has gone on among those on the Tory Front Benches. The hon. Member for Galloway and Upper Nithsdale (Mr. Duncan) now says that coterminosity is everything and that the numbers can fluctuate, when his predecessors said in 1998 that, once people had picked a number, they had to stick with it.
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At that time, we decided that coterminosity was of less importance. It is extraordinary that the views of those on the Conservative Front Bench should oscillate in that way.
I find that even more extraordinary when we are offered a commission with a serious opportunity to consider all the issues. That is the place where we can look at the various election methods. The AV system has been mentioned and it is a perfectly valid system. The first-past-the-post system is valid, but it is not one that I happen to agree with. All those systems need to be considered in such a forum, so that the views of all Scots, not just those who happen to be present in the Chamber, can be taken into account. It will then be our job to consider those recommendations and debate them, and we need the time to do so.
It shows a stunning lack of political judgment that the Conservative party should fail to take part in that process, unless this were all some curious device to be able to vote one way today and another way at a later stage. The lack of judgment displayed by the Conservative party in that regard is equalled only by its leader's lack of judgment over the Butler inquiry.
Mr. Peter Duncan: Perhaps I have not made myself clear—if so, I accept the hon. Gentleman's admonishment—but the commission is being set up to resolve the problem of non-coterminous boundaries. Despite the lack of support from the hon. Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. Davidson), we still think that we might muster the numbers to oppose the Bill. We have not given up hope. Until the Bill completes its way through the House and becomes legislation, we do not have a problem with non-coterminous boundaries.
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