John Thurso:
The hon. Gentleman might have persuaded himself in the shaving mirror about that argument, but he has not persuaded anyone else.
It has become clear that a substantial majority of people in Scotland clearly understand that we need to maintain the number of Members at 129, or there or thereaboutsif it were 128 or 130, I would not quibbleto be able to preserve the workings of a new, young Parliament. That is the consensus view. As the hon. Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. Davidson) pointed out, the Scottish Parliament is successful and has done a good job and we do not need to start rocking the boat at this juncture. It should be allowed to continue to do its work.
There are two simple reasons for hanging on to 129 Members. First, the Scottish Parliament is working well and, secondly, because it is just settling down. I have always thought that it would take two or three Parliaments for the Scottish Parliament to settle down properly. However, there are clearly consequences, two of which have been debated at length tonight. One of them is the lack of coterminosity that will follow the next general election.
As I mentioned earlier, the lack of coterminosity is built into the Scotland Act 1998. Approximately every eight years, when there is a boundary commission review, which takes place at different times for the two Parliaments, there is a period between general elections in each Parliament of approximately two years when the boundaries would be different. The consequence was therewe all knew that it would beand it is not quite the great bugaboo that everyone has made out.
4 May 2004 : Column 1303
The second consequence, which is only a partial consequence, is that the Scottish Parliament may choose another electoral system and vote for single transferable vote for local government. It is perfectly sensible that a commission should consider both voting and coterminosity and make recommendations. As I said on Second Reading, I hope that that will happen reasonably quickly. The Under-Secretary has given us some assurances about that.
Given the need to act with reasonable dispatch to preserve the status quo on the one hand, and the consequences of thatcoterminosity or its lack and the voting mechanismon the other, it is clear that we need a mechanism. The commission is a sensible way forward and my hon. Friends and I will be happy to make representations to it. I hope that hon. Members who believe in AV and first past the post will present their arguments, as we will make ours for STV.
Let us hear from the commission and base our decisions in the House on what it says. However, for the moment, let us pass a small, straightforward Bill that corrects an obvious mistake and preserve the future of the Scottish Parliament from the sword of Damocles of change.
9.31 pm
Pete Wishart:
As the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) said, the Bill is small, but it has produced a big and useful debate. Although the measure was designed exclusively to decouple the link between the reduction of the number of Members of this House and the desire to retain 129 Members of the Scottish Parliament, we have had the opportunity to examine many other important issues to do with Scottish Parliament. It has therefore been a valuable use of time.
It is fair to acknowledge that it is our first opportunity to debate the Scotland Act on the Floor of the House since it was passed in 1998. I hope that it is the first of many such revisits to devolve further powers to the Scottish Parliament. I am sure that several other hon. Members share that ambition.
The debate has given us an opportunity to examine the problems of coterminosity, consider voting systems and assess the workings of additional member systems of proportional representation for the Scottish Parliament. However, the genuine difficulties and challenges in the Labour party were much more revealing. The Westminster group and the Edinburgh group take different approaches and the differences emerged in our debates. [Interruption.] My hon. Friends remind me that there are differences within the Westminster group. A problem has been identified and I hope that we shall now work towards a sensible solution.
The only outstanding issue for me and my hon. Friends is the role of the Scottish Parliament. The Secretary of State made it clear when he announced the commission that it would report jointly to the First Minister and the Secretary of State. The Under-Secretary has subsequently told us that it will report to those fine upstanding gentlemen and then be considered by the Scottish Executive before reverting to this place for further consideration and approval. The system appears to work until we get to the last bit. I am worried
4 May 2004 : Column 1304
about the matter reverting to this place, given the hostility that has begun to emerge from Labour Members towards the Scottish Parliament. I hope that we can get a commitment that the consent of the Scottish Parliament will be required before any significant changes are made here. This Parliament will be subject to change and it is right that the parliamentarians who are elected by the Scottish people and who are accountable to them for their decisions have a say in the matter and that their consent is given to any changes made here.
On Second Reading, the Secretary of State announced his intention to set up a commission to examine such issues. The Scottish National party looks forward to participating in the commission, of which we shall be judicious members. I share the disappointment at the Conservatives' decision not to join the commission at this stage. I agree that it represents monumental folly on the part of Conservative Front Benchers.
The hon. Member for Galloway and Upper Nithsdale (Mr. Duncan) said in reply to my earlier intervention that he intends to join the commission after it has met for several months. That is some contribution from the Conservative party. We will all be part of the commission, trying to find a solution to some of the major problems that we have identified. Then along will come the Tories, once the Bill has finally gone through. That is an unsatisfactory solution for the Tories and I urge them to think again about serving on the commission.
My colleagues and I will support the Bill on Third Reading because, along with the majority of people whose views have been canvassed, we believe that 129 Members are absolutely necessary for the Parliament to do its work effectively, not only because of the Committee system, but because that figure has been identified as the minimum to make the Parliament work. Again, only the Conservatives are against the measure.
Mr. Peter Duncan:
The hon. Gentleman said that 129 is the minimum figure. Does that mean that the Scottish National party would like a bigger Scottish Parliament?
Pete Wishart:
Yes, is the short answer. We would like to think of the Scottish Parliament as an independent normal Parliament, contributing to the rest of the nation. To perform that function, we would need more MSPs, or Members of Parliament, as they would be in an independent Scotland. I would hope that the hon. Gentleman would join us in that ambition. I am disappointed in the attitude of Conservative Members, who will vote against the Bill tonight. They will oppose it just as they opposed the Scotland Act 1998 in the first place.
A number of Labour Members are itching to join the Conservatives. I note that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Anniesland (John Robertson) is not paying attention, but his "stick with the Act" campaign is probably doomed to ignominious failure this evening. I sense that he would quite like to join the Conservatives in the Lobby tonight to oppose the Bill, so that he could stick with the Act.
4 May 2004 : Column 1305
The figure of 129 is right, and we are committed to it. We look forward to the work of the commission. We hope that it can deal with some of the issues that have been identified in the two debates and we will certainly work with the commission to ensure that some solutions are delivered so that we can start to go forward.
Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time:
The House divided: Ayes 326, Noes 104.
Division No. 158
[9:36 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Adams, Irene
(Paisley N)
Ainsworth, Bob
(Cov'try NE)
Allan, Richard
Allen, Graham
Anderson, rh Donald
(Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet
(Rossendale & Darwen)
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Bailey, Adrian
Baird, Vera
Baker, Norman
Barnes, Harry
Barrett, John
Barron, rh Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Begg, Miss Anne
Beith, rh A. J.
Bennett, Andrew
Benton, Joe
(Bootle)
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Borrow, David
Bradley, rh Keith
(Withington)
Bradley, Peter
(The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brake, Tom
(Carshalton)
Breed, Colin
Brennan, Kevin
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Brown, rh Nicholas
(Newcastle E Wallsend)
Brown, Russell
(Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Bruce, Malcolm
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Cairns, David
Calton, Mrs Patsy
Campbell, Mrs Anne
(C'bridge)
Caplin, Ivor
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian
(Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
(Wirral S)
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Mrs Helen
(Peterborough)
Clark, Dr. Lynda
(Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul
(Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Tom
(Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clarke, Tony
(Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann
(Cynon V)
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Colman, Tony
Corston, Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom
(Tooting)
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Ann
(Keighley)
Cryer, John
(Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Jim
(Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony
(Workington)
Darling, rh Alistair
Davey, Valerie
(Bristol W)
David, Wayne
Davidson, Ian
Davies, rh Denzil
(Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint
(Croydon C)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, rh John
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dismore, Andrew
Donohoe, Brian H.
Doran, Frank
Doughty, Sue
Dowd, Jim
(Lewisham W)
Drew, David
(Stroud)
Eagle, Angela
(Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria
(L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Etherington, Bill
Ewing, Annabelle
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Frank
(Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Flynn, Paul
(Newport W)
Follett, Barbara
Foster, rh Derek
Foster, Don
(Bath)
Foster, Michael
(Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez
(Hastings & Rye)
Foulkes, rh George
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
(Ilford S)
George, Andrew
(St. Ives)
George, rh Bruce
(Walsall S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gidley, Sandra
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Green, Matthew
(Ludlow)
Griffiths, Jane
(Reading E)
Griffiths, Win
(Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike
(Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick
(Bedford)
Hamilton, David
(Midlothian)
Hamilton, Fabian
(Leeds NE)
Hancock, Mike
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harvey, Nick
Heath, David
Henderson, Doug
(Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan
(Harwich)
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hill, Keith
(Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David
Hodge, Margaret
Hoey, Kate
(Vauxhall)
Holmes, Paul
Hood, Jimmy
(Clydesdale)
Hope, Phil
(Corby)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Kevin
(Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan
(Braintree)
Hutton, rh John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Eric
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan
(Hull W)
Johnson, Miss Melanie
(Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Helen
(Warrington N)
Jones, Jon Owen
(Cardiff C)
Jones, Kevan
(N Durham)
Jones, Lynne
(Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn
(Clwyd S)
Jones, Nigel
(Cheltenham)
Joyce, Eric
(Falkirk W)
Kaufman, rh Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Kennedy, Jane
(Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy
(Rugby)
King, Ms Oona
(Bethnal Green & Bow)
Kirkwood, Sir Archy
Knight, Jim
(S Dorset)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lamb, Norman
Lammy, David
Laxton, Bob
(Derby N)
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom
(High Peak)
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian
(Wrexham)
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McCafferty, Chris
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
MacDougall, John
McFall, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahmood, Khalid
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Mandelson, rh Peter
Mann, John
(Bassetlaw)
Marris, Rob
(Wolverh'ton SW)
Marsden, Gordon
(Blackpool S)
Marshall, David
(Glasgow Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim
(Leicester S)
Martlew, Eric
Meacher, rh Michael
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Alan
Miliband, David
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moonie, Dr. Lewis
Moore, Michael
Moran, Margaret
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Elliot
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, George
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Denis
(Wansbeck)
Murphy, Jim
(Eastwood)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
O'Brien, Bill
(Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike
(N Warks)
Olner, Bill
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, Sandra
(Ayr)
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Perham, Linda
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter
(Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris
(Gravesham)
Pope, Greg
(Hyndburn)
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget
(Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon
(Pendle)
Prescott, rh John
Prosser, Gwyn
Purnell, James
Quin, rh Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Reed, Andy
(Loughborough)
Reid, Alan
(Argyll & Bute)
Reid, rh Dr. John
(Hamilton N & Bellshill)
Rendel, David
Robertson, John
(Glasgow Anniesland)
Robinson, Geoffrey
(Coventry NW)
Ross, Ernie
(Dundee W)
Roy, Frank
(Motherwell)
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Bob
(Colchester)
Russell, Ms Christine
(City of Chester)
Salmond, Alex
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Adrian
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sheerman, Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simpson, Alan
(Nottingham S)
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, rh Andrew
(Oxford E)
Smith, Geraldine
(Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui
(Redditch)
Smith, John
(Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew
(Blaenau Gwent)
Smith, Sir Robert
(W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Helen
Squire, Rachel
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David
(Inverness E & Lochaber)
Stewart, Ian
(Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Tami, Mark
(Alyn)
Taylor, Dari
(Stockton S)
Taylor, David
(NW Leics)
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
(S Derbyshire)
Tonge, Dr. Jenny
Touhig, Don
(Islwyn)
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dr. Desmond
(Brighton Kemptown)
Twigg, Derek
(Halton)
Tyler, Paul
(N Cornwall)
Tynan, Bill
(Hamilton S)
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Robert N.
Watson, Tom
(W Bromwich E)
Watts, David
Weir, Michael
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Williams, rh Alan
(Swansea W)
Williams, Hywel
(Caernarfon)
Williams, Roger
(Brecon)
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie
(Doncaster C)
Wishart, Pete
Woodward, Shaun
Wright, Anthony D.
(Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David
(Telford)
Wright, Tony
(Cannock)
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Nick Ainger and
Gillian Merron
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter
(E Surrey)
Ancram, rh Michael
Arbuthnot, rh James
Atkinson, David
(Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter
(Hexham)
Bacon, Richard
Barker, Gregory
Baron, John
(Billericay)
Beggs, Roy
(E Antrim)
Bercow, John
Blunt, Crispin
Boswell, Tim
Brady, Graham
Brazier, Julian
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, Sir John
Cameron, David
Campbell, Gregory
(E Lond'y)
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney
(Chipping Barnet)
Clarke, rh Kenneth
(Rushcliffe)
Collins, Tim
Curry, rh David
Djanogly, Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Stephen
Duncan, Peter
(Galloway)
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Flight, Howard
Flook, Adrian
Garnier, Edward
Gibb, Nick
(Bognor Regis)
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodman, Paul
Gray, James
(N Wilts)
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian
(Ashford)
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Gummer, rh John
Hammond, Philip
Hawkins, Nick
Heald, Oliver
Hogg, rh Douglas
Horam, John
(Orpington)
Jack, rh Michael
Key, Robert
(Salisbury)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lansley, Andrew
Lewis, Dr. Julian
(New Forest E)
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Luff, Peter
(M-Worcs)
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mackay, rh Andrew
McLoughlin, Patrick
Maples, John
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
Mercer, Patrick
Mitchell, Andrew
(Sutton Coldfield)
Moss, Malcolm
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Norman, Archie
O'Brien, Stephen
(Eddisbury)
Osborne, George
(Tatton)
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paterson, Owen
Portillo, rh Michael
Prisk, Mark
(Hertford)
Randall, John
Redwood, rh John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
(Faversham & M-Kent)
Robertson, Laurence
(Tewk'b'ry)
Robinson, Peter
(Belfast E)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Ruffley, David
Selous, Andrew
Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Keith
(M-Norfolk)
Smyth, Rev. Martin
(Belfast S)
Spink, Bob
(Castle Point)
Spring, Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Swayne, Desmond
Swire, Hugo
(E Devon)
Syms, Robert
Taylor, Ian
(Esher)
Taylor, John
(Solihull)
Turner, Andrew
(Isle of Wight)
Tyrie, Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Walter, Robert
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Ann
(Congleton)
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
(Macclesfield)
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown and
Mr. Mark Francois
Question accordingly agreed to.
4 May 2004 : Column 1308
Bill read the Third time, and passed.