| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Pete Wishart: Unlike the hon. Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood), I wish to speak to the amendment. I support it not for any reason that he gave but because I hope that the Secretary of State will take this opportunity—this window of delay—to ensure that the Scottish Parliament is consulted and gives its consent before any changes are made to its voting arrangements or how its membership is determined.
It would be almost inconceivable for such a significant change to be effected without consent. If the Scottish Parliament is to make such changes work, it needs to be on board. The idea that the House could impose them on a possibly unco-operative Scottish Parliament is simply not tenable and should be rejected out of hand. It would be almost impossible for a working relationship to continue in such circumstances.
Mr. Davidson: If the hon. Gentleman is saying that Westminster should not impose a system of election on the Scottish Parliament without its consent, does he also take the view that the Scottish Parliament should not impose a system of election on Scottish local government without its consent?
Pete Wishart:
The Scottish local authorities are fully engaged in the debate about the single transferable vote.
4 May 2004 : Column 1232
The Scottish Labour party has just enthusiastically accepted proportional representation for local government and it should be congratulated on that big step forward. Labour Members should be cheering that to the rafters.
Mr. Tom Clarke (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab): I have been listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman, as I always do. I have a closer link with the Scottish Labour party—if I may say so, with my modest local government background—than he has, and I can find no support for PR in local government anywhere in Scotland. Of course, you would rule me out of order, Mr. Cook, if I referred to the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament, but I hope that they will bear that view in mind.
Pete Wishart: I can detect no support for PR for Scottish local government on the Government Benches here, which is truly remarkable given that it is now Labour party policy. We are witnessing the emergence of two different Labour—
The Temporary Chairman (Mr. Frank Cook): Order. I have no wish to inhibit the enjoyment that is evident in the Chamber, but the Committee has already been admonished to the effect that it is seriously endangering any debate on clause stand part if that enjoyment continues in the same vein. We are not debating PR anywhere, so can we please make our comments more specific to the amendment?
Pete Wishart: Of course, I shall return to the amendment, Mr. Cook, but it is interesting that there seem to be two Labour parties emerging: Lanarkshire Labour in Edinburgh, and London Labour down here—and never the twain shall meet.
Mr. Wilson: I am not enjoying this at all, Mr. Cook. I want to get away from this banter and recognise the seriousness of what the hon. Gentleman is saying. If, for whatever reason, the nationalists are supporting an amendment calling for postponement until 2006, is that not a point of the utmost seriousness? As the nationalists are the official Opposition in the Scottish Parliament, and they support the amendment, and the Tories support it, and the vast majority of my colleagues support it, why on earth is the measure being driven through today?
Pete Wishart: That is a very good question, and the right hon. Gentleman can put it to his Front Benchers if he wants to. I have said clearly why I want a postponement until 2006. I want the Secretary of State to be able to consult, and seek consent from, the Scottish Parliament. That should be a prerequisite for any change in membership to, or voting arrangements for, the Scottish Parliament.
We know that the membership, voting arrangements and constitution of the Scottish Parliament are matters reserved to this House. I have heard no good reason why that should be the case other than, "That's just the way it is." We should remember this House's record on these arrangements. It put in place, and enthusiastically adopted, the additional member system. It has not exactly covered itself in glory in dealing with these
4 May 2004 : Column 1233
issues, perhaps because it got them wrong before. Let us think about giving the decision to somebody who might get it right, because we certainly have not got it right here so far. We have had the additional member system for only five years, yet we already have had seven amendments to try to put right a decision that was clearly wrong in the first place.
The Scottish Parliament is perhaps unique among European legislatures, in that it has no right to determine its own voting arrangements and voting system. I have looked at some European legislatures, and even the most modest domestic regional assembly has the right to a say about its membership and voting arrangements. The Lander in Germany, for example, are responsible for their own constitutions. They can determine their own size, which can vary from 51 members in the small Saarland region, to 231 in the most populous area of North Rhine Westphalia. Surely, that is right. Is it not a sign of maturity and responsibility that any self-respecting Parliament worth its salt should have that responsibility and key function?
All hon. Members will agree that the Scottish Parliament is now a fully grown institution. It is well into its second term and is the predominant and pre-eminent political institution in Scotland. The people of Scotland expect the Scottish Parliament to clarify and personify the national voice. Surely it should be allowed at least a say in its membership and voting arrangements.
A couple of weeks ago, I was fortunate enough to be with several hon. Members in Dover house, where we heard about the new Scottish social attitudes survey. During that session, we heard the key concerns about the performance of the Scottish Parliament and discovered that the Scottish people are several steps ahead of us politicians. They want increased powers for the Scottish Parliament—[Hon. Members: "No, they don't."] Hon. Members say that they do not, but they should look at the Scottish social attitudes survey. Every survey commissioned in the past couple of years has suggested that more than 50 per cent. of the Scottish people want increased powers for the Scottish Parliament. That is a matter of fact. Given that the Scottish people want increased powers for the Parliament, we should at least make sure that we consult, and seek consent from, the Scottish people in respect of the Scottish Parliament's voting arrangements.
Mr. Lazarowicz: I, too, was at that presentation. The hon. Gentleman will recall that, at the end, the Minister warned against interpreting statistics too selectively. Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that one conclusion of the survey was that support for devolution has increased since the referendum, whereas support for independence continues to slide?
Pete Wishart: We are debating particular systems and I will continue to put the case for independence, just as the hon. Gentleman will doubtless continue to put the case for devolution. Who is in the best position to assess the requirements of the Scottish Parliament in terms of its size and membership?
Mr. Connarty:
The hon. Gentleman has wandered away from the amendment. He started by saying that he
4 May 2004 : Column 1234
supported the amendment, which would in fact postpone implementation of the changes. Will he take a little time to tell us why his party thinks that the changes should be postponed, rather than focusing on his own amendment—it dealt with the role of the Scottish Parliament—which was not selected?
Pete Wishart: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I have already done that. I want this delay and window of opportunity to be used by the Secretary of State to seek the consent of the Scottish Parliament. In not addressing the amendment, I would be entirely consistent with the hon. Member for Clydesdale, who spent 25 minutes before he even got close to addressing it.
I can sense that I am stretching your patience, Mr. Cook, so I will conclude. As I said, who is in the best position to assess the voting requirements for membership to the Scottish Parliament? Is it this House with its increasing and developing hostility to the Scottish Parliament—as evidenced by the remarks of some Labour Members today—or those who work in the Scottish Parliament who are accountable to the Scottish people for the decisions that they take? Surely those who live and work there and who are accountable to the Scottish people should be responsible for the voting and membership arrangements of the Scottish Parliament.
The Secretary of State is happy to have his new commission report jointly to him and the First Minister. I congratulate him on that, because it shows that he is prepared to see a role for the Scottish Parliament in all of this. He obviously sees the Scottish Parliament having a role in developing arguments about its voting and membership arrangements. All I am asking for now is to have built into the Bill his acknowledgement that the Scottish Parliament has an important role and the fact that consent should be sought before bringing about any change to its voting or membership arrangements.
5 pm
| Next Section | Index | Home Page |