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House of Commons

Wednesday 5 May 2004

The House met at half-past Eleven o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. Speaker in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions

WALES

The Secretary of State was asked—

Children Bill

1. Mr. Martin Caton (Gower) (Lab): What representations he has received from the Children's Commissioner for Wales on the Children Bill. [169181]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Don Touhig): I recently met the Children's Commissioner for Wales to discuss his work and the impact on that work of the Children Bill. I have also met the all-party group on children in Wales. The Bill will provide the basis for further strengthening of local services for children and young people in Wales, giving them the start in life they so richly deserve.

Mr. Caton : I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, but is it not the case that the Welsh commissioner, his opposite numbers in Scotland and Northern Ireland and voluntary organisations working with children in Wales all say that the proposal in the Bill to create an English commissioner with responsibility for non-devolved matters over other parts of the UK is mistaken? Surely, the best way forward for all children in the UK is certainly to have an English commissioner, with responsibility for all children and all policy aspects in England, but to extend the remit of the other commissioners in the UK to cover non-devolved matters.

Mr. Touhig: The post of Welsh commissioner was set up by the National Assembly in response to the Waterhouse report and to support the Assembly's rights-based strategy for children. The Government's new agenda for children is focused on our key outcome—improving children's lives. The role of the children's commissioner in England was designed with a different agenda in mind, and a key role for the commissioner will be to monitor progress on our priority outcomes for children. As responsibility for non-devolved matters lies at Westminster, it is appropriate that they come under the responsibility of a
 
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commissioner who reports to Ministers who answer to this House, so I do not agree with the last part of his question.

Hywel Williams (Caernarfon) (PC): Following the extraordinary performance by the Minister for Children yesterday, the question for the hon. Gentleman and for the Secretary of State is clear: do they stand with the Children's Commissioner for Wales, with MPs and AMs from all parties, with non-governmental organisations in Wales and, most important, with children in Wales, or do they back the Minister for Children in her extraordinary attack on the Welsh children's commissioner? The commissioner or the Minister, which is it to be?

Mr. Touhig: I am disappointed in the hon. Gentleman. Yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Minister was trying to emphasise the difference in approach to the work of the Children's Commissioner for Wales and the work proposed for the children's commissioner for England. As I said in my previous answer, the commissioner in Wales deals with individual cases on a day-to-day basis. I have met him and I know the value of the work that he is doing. In England, the role of the commissioner was designed with a different agenda in mind: to focus on the Government's strategic aims and to monitor progress. We should understand that important difference before we get any deeper into the argument.

Alan Howarth (Newport, East) (Lab): Has the Children's Commissioner for Wales, following his important previous report, offered my hon. Friend any further advice, in the context of the Children Bill, on the practicalities of achieving improved multi-agency co-ordination of early and expert care for young people with emotional and behavioural difficulties, to ensure that mental health problems in childhood and adolescence are not carried forward into adult life?

Mr. Touhig: The Bill will enable my colleagues in the Assembly to put the children and young people framework partnership in Wales on a statutory footing with all 22 local authority areas. I know that the matter to which my right hon. Friend refers exercised the Children's Commissioner for Wales a little while ago. I have very useful discussions with the commissioner and have no doubt that as the Bill progresses there will be discussions about a memorandum of understanding between the commissioner in England, the commissioner in Wales and the other devolved Administrations. I hope and expect that the points raised by my right hon. Friend will come out in those discussions.

The Secretary of State and I have made it clear to the Children's Commissioner for Wales that our door is always open if he wishes to raise matters with us. We think that the Bill offers a good deal for Wales, because a third of it is Wales-only; it takes forward the devolution agenda sensibly and progressively and we want to ensure that it works well for Wales. We shall work closely with the Children's Commissioner for Wales to deliver the best for the children of Wales.
 
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Industry/University Links

2. Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): What discussions he has had with the Minister for Economic Development and Transport of the National Assembly for Wales on encouraging closer working between manufacturing industry and universities in Wales. [169182]

The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Hain): We have held regular discussions. Strengthening collaborative links between industry, academia and our science base is vital if Wales is to continue to attract and develop high-tech investment and to compete in global markets.

Ian Lucas : Does my right hon. Friend agree that creating a research infrastructure in an important manufacturing area such as north-east Wales is essential to the continued success of manufacturing in the region? Will he ask the Minister responsible for such matters in the National Assembly for Wales to make an assessment of how much current research for manufacturing companies in north-east Wales is carried out in Wales?

Mr. Hain: I will happily speak to the Minister for Economic Development and Transport to find out whether it is possible to discover the answer to my hon. Friend's question. He will know that a £150 million technium project is being rolled out the length and breadth of Wales, including two research and development facilities for laser technology—at St. Asaph in north Wales and, of course, at the centre for advanced software technology at Bangor. That marriage of industry, science, innovation and academia is the key to Wales's drive to improve our technological base, our economy and our valued-added ability to win in global markets.

Mr. Bill Wiggin (Leominster) (Con): How many jobs are there in the chemicals sectors in Wales, and how dependent are those jobs on the chemistry taught in Swansea? Does the right hon. Gentleman think that the closure of the chemistry department at Swansea university will have a negative impact on the future of that sector in Wales?

Mr. Hain: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the manufacturing sector in Wales, including the chemistry industry, is in good shape. Indeed, the CBI director said that the news for manufacturing is better than it has been for a very long time in Wales. However, in respect of the university of Swansea, I understand that the intention is to close the undergraduate courses over a period of years, while protecting existing students' rights and maintaining postgraduate studies, research and related academic areas.

Mr. Wiggin: The reason cited for the closure of that department is that courses in other subjects can be run for less money. When asking industry to support universities, how does the right hon. Gentleman respond to the accusation that the Government's targets are forcing universities to offer more and cheaper courses, rather than traditional, scientific research subjects, such as chemistry?
 
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Mr. Hain: I respond to that accusation by saying that it is clearly nonsense. In fact, we are now seeing more and more collaboration between industry and universities in Wales, including Swansea and Cardiff, which is doing especially well. That is driving forward the Welsh economy's ability to compete. I am rather surprised that the hon. Gentleman raises this issue given that the Conservative party intends, if it wins the next general election, to institute cuts in the first two years of its period in office, thus reducing education funding in universities and cutting the ability of Wales to prosper. It is no surprise therefore that he did not even know when his manifesto launch for the local election was to take place. He seems to have lost the draft manifesto. Perhaps he can tell us when he will deal with that.

Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): The Secretary of State will be aware of the recent announcement of the proposed closure of RAF Sealand and the subsequent possible job losses there. Will he join me in working with the Welsh Development Agency, Flintshire county council and the Assembly to generate new employment? In particular, he has mentioned techniums, so will he encourage the development of techniums in north Wales, especially in areas where we are very successful, such as the aerospace industry?

Mr. Hain: I will happily do that. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to focus on the jewel in the crown of the north-east Wales economy—its Airbus operations and the related support mechanisms. If the Assembly is able to encourage research and development in the technium concept there, it will be a very good thing indeed. In respect of Sealand, yes, I will happily work with him on that because alternative opportunities are available for the workers who have lost their jobs. We are seeing a process of rapid change in industry and throughout the Welsh economy, in which nevertheless more and more jobs are being created all the time, with employment up by 120,000 since the general election in 1997.

Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): The Secretary of State will be aware that the university of Wales clearly plays an important role in providing a skills base for manufacturing in Wales. Is he aware of the problems presently facing the university of Wales and the fact that a cross-party group of MPs and other individuals are seeking solutions to those difficulties? Will he share his views on what we should be doing, what he has done and how he feels about the confederation proposals in respect of the universities in Wales? Finally, would he be willing to listen to some specific proposals, when they have been formulated by the interested parties, to resolve the issues facing the university of Wales?

Mr. Hain: Of course, I will be happy to listen to specific proposals from the hon. Gentleman or others, but it is important that universities such as Cardiff and others, are able to market themselves very effectively, as he will agree, in an intensely competitive global higher education market. In particular, Cardiff has done extraordinarily well in the past few years, and other universities in Wales are in a similar position. We want
 
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them all to develop in their own ways, rather than having an over-arching bureaucracy that holds them back. Nevertheless, we should consider the different models that exist.

Donald Anderson (Swansea, East) (Lab): Undergraduate teaching in chemistry will be ended in Swansea, while the university is expanding the teaching of softer, more popular subjects, such as media studies. Surely if the Government are serious about encouraging a science base, as we said in the Budget, we should look again at what Swansea university is suggesting, particularly because the experts say that research needs an undergraduate base. Does my right hon. Friend agree that, if we wish to thrive as a nation, we cannot go around simply writing media essays to one another?

Mr. Hain: I could not agree more. The problem with Swansea, as my right hon. Friend will know as a local Member of Parliament, is that both the university senate and council voted overwhelmingly in support of the proposals. I myself am disappointed, not least because I have a company in my constituency that was spun out of Swansea university's chemistry department 10 to 20 years ago. Excellence should be maintained, and the university says that that will indeed be the case at postgraduate level—the very level which feeds into innovation and technological development.

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