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Mr. Hoon: The hon. and learned Gentleman may suggest that we have taken credit. I do not recall his giving us any credit. While I accept that we are part of a coalition, we have direct responsibility, as should be the case, for the conduct of our troops. That is why I have expressed so clearly and emphatically our determination to ensure that the highest standards of British troops down the ages will be maintained in this Iraq operation.
Mr. Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con):
Will the Secretary of State confirm that, regularly and as a matter of routine, every British serviceman and woman of
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whatever rank is taught not only about the rules of engagement but about the provisions of the Geneva convention?
Mr. Hoon: That is absolutely right, and it is central to training. As I said earlier, however, if training turns out to be insufficient in the light of the increasing complexity of modern international law, we shall certainly look at that again.
Mr. Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): Does the training include a proper reporting mechanism for our troops and for civilians? Does my right hon. Friend agree that persons reporting on matters in the public domain need to use very temperate language in the interests of our serving troops? As he knows, the Cheshire Regiment is in Iraq at the moment.
Can my right hon. Friend throw any light on the use of black-and-white photographs by the Daily Mirror? It was an unusual choice of medium.
Mr. Hoon: As I have said, further investigations of the Daily Mirror photographs are continuing. As I have also said, it does not appear that the truck used in the photographs was in Iraq during the relevant period. Obviously, the investigations would include investigations of the photography and, indeed, the use of black-and-white photography. That may have surprised my hon. Friend; it certainly surprised me.
As for my hon. Friend's first question, it is important to have an appropriate reporting mechanism in which people can have confidence. I apologise for repeating this so often, but it is vital for us to have an effective investigatory system.
Mr. Paul Marsden (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (LD): On the eve of war last year, the Prime Minister promised that a war would bring about an end to
"The brutality of the repression—the death and torture camps, the barbaric prisons for political opponents, the routine beatings for anyone or their families suspected of disloyalty".—[Official Report, 18 March 2003; Vol. 401, c. 772.]
When does the Secretary of State expect such brutality to end under the coalition's jurisdiction, and is not it time that we understood that such brutality is giving succour and encouragement to would-be terrorists around the globe?
Mr. Hoon: I resisted earlier the suggestion that, because Saddam Hussein treated his people appallingly, that was an excuse for anyone acting on behalf of coalition forces to behave in a similar manner, but I invite the hon. Gentleman to think carefully—perhaps he will look at what he has just said in tomorrow's Hansard—and ask whether he is comparing the activities of British troops with those of Saddam Hussein. I am sure that, when he looks at his words, he will regret having said them.
Mrs. Alice Mahon (Halifax) (Lab):
The Secretary of State did not answer my right hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Medway (Mr. Marshall-Andrews), so may I put the question to him again? We are in a coalition. We know that part of that coalition
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has been torturing, humiliating and killing prisoners in custody. That not only corrupts them; it corrupts us in the eyes of the world. Is not it time to go back to the United Nations, to get a credible force in there to help to secure the country, and to pull our troops out immediately?
Mr. Hoon: My hon. Friend will be aware that the United Kingdom is determined to see a further United Nations Security Council resolution and that we are already in discussions with other members of the Security Council and of the United Nations to determine a resolution that will provide further legal authority for our forces in Iraq.
Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con): My hon. Friend the Member for Westbury (Dr. Murrison) asked the Minister of State for the armed forces a direct question on 4 May: had he received any external or other reports? The Minister of State responded without equivocation, "I have not". It is at column 1216 of Hansard—it is being shown to him now. That was, in the light of what we have heard today, a confusing answer. What was the time lag between external reports arriving in the Ministry of Defence and landing on Ministers' desks, and what was the time lag between the reports leaving Ministers' desks and going to the Army legal service, the Crown Prosecution Service or the Attorney-General? We need the answers.
Mr. Hoon: The hon. and learned Gentleman is far too expert in matters of law to need me to suggest to him that there are no specific dates for the time scale between each of those separate events that he has described. It is entirely a matter for those investigating a case how long the investigation should be before the case is put before the authority deciding on prosecution. It is then for the prosecution authority to decide how long it should take and indeed whether it requires any further investigation or evidence to determine whether charges should be brought. I did indicate in my statement that, in two cases in particular, we are close to that point.
Mr. Malcolm Savidge (Aberdeen, North) (Lab): Can we seek the agreement of our coalition partners that, as far as possible, all Iraqi deaths, whether in custody or not, should be registered, recorded, counted and where appropriate investigated?
Mr. Hoon: I would like to be able to agree with my hon. Friend; it would certainly make my life easier in answering questions of that kind. In the course of military operations, it is extraordinarily difficult to identify casualties—whether an individual has been seriously wounded, lightly wounded or killed. Unfortunately, that information is simply not always available. Clearly, where it is available, we try to record it, but there is a risk in recording it of under-recording the number of casualties.
Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con):
Did Ministers at any point discuss the conduct of our guards of prisoners and the way in which intelligence was extracted from Iraqis? Did they ever send out any instructions about how they wished those things to be
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conducted? Would it not have been better if Ministers had read the ICRC report and responded to the general allegations in it as well as the specific ones?
Mr. Hoon: Ministers did respond to the general allegations—one of which, as I said in my statement, concerned the practice of hooding, which by then had been stopped. It was not specifically related to the United Kingdom, but was taken as a reference to a previous practice that had been ended. Ministers and officials responded to the criticisms in the interim report, as they should have.
Mr. Speaker: Order. We now come to the main business.
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Points of Order
4.30 pm
Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order for the Minister of State to mislead the House? In his statement last Tuesday, he said that he had received no reports from international organisations. That has been partly clarified but not fully. May I quote from a letter that I have just received—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is seeking to extend the questioning of the Secretary of State. [Hon. Members: "He is not."] I say that he is, and that is the important thing. He had an opportunity to question the Secretary of State; others did not. I ask him to refrain from extending his question through a point of order. I also point out to the House that there is a 10-minute limit on Back Benchers for the business that we are about to take. It is unfair to take any time out of that debate.
Harry Cohen (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I draw your attention to the conventions of the House. I am aware of at least a couple of Members who stood up during questions on the Minister's statement last week but were not called and who stood up again today and were not called. Generally, it is a convention that that is taken note of and that those Members are given an opportunity to speak on future occasions.
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