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Mr. Stunell: I am more than happy to do that, although I do not know how far you want me to stray from the specific topics under discussion, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My booklet is, I believe, available through the House of Commons Library.

Mr. Kevin Hughes: The hon. Gentleman has done an injustice. Before he gave way to the right hon. Member for Fylde (Mr. Jack), he said that the DTI treated energy like a hobby. That is unfair, because most people take their hobbies very seriously.

Mr. Stunell: May I assure you that we did not practise this routine before we started, Mr. Deputy Speaker?

The DTI officials are only too happy to fill up this place's time with endless market meddling and technical fiddling. Rather than spending day after day on the difference between NETA and BETTA, we would be better in Committee, although the Minister's Department would be horrified, to turn the Bill into what it should be: the foundation of a long-term sustainable energy policy. Such a policy should be designed to implement the action needed to reach our Kyoto obligations by 2010—we are going in the wrong direction on that at the moment—to achieve the royal commission recommendations of a 60 per cent. reduction by 2050, which I understand the Government believe they are committed to, and to reshape our production and use of energy to achieve those aims. My hon. Friends and I will seek to do just that in Committee. We will vigorously defend the limited gains made in the Lords and push for further significant improvements to the existing provisions. We will also want to give the Bill some backbone and bottle so that
 
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the half-dead energy mouse that the Minister has dragged into the House today can be taken back to the Lords with something of a roar.

To do what is needed does not require a great deal of rocket science. It does not need a multiplicity of new technologies, it does not need miracles and it does not, funnily enough, need a great deal of money. Given that a quarter of our carbon dioxide emissions come from our homes and extra energy efficiency in that sector cuts fuel bills, increases home comfort and has major health benefits as well as carbon dioxide reductions, savings could be made if we invested in that field. I believe that to achieve an effective energy policy and a piece of legislation that reflects that policy, some wholehearted and full-time commitment is needed from the Government, with a conviction at the most senior levels of Government that a sustainable energy policy is a public good, an electoral asset and, on the bottom line, a big plus. My Liberal Democrat colleagues and I will do all that we can during the Bill's passage to persuade the Government of the urgent necessity to get their head out of the sand, to beef up the Bill and to give the United Kingdom a sustainable energy policy.

6.7 pm

Mr. Martin O'Neill (Ochil) (Lab): The Bill has been somewhat dismissed as a miscellaneous provisions Bill, but I remember asking for such a piece of legislation because I felt that it would be one of the quickest ways to meet a number of our urgent requirements. One of those was the need to secure a nuclear decommissioning authority, which was necessary to address systematically the legacy to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) has already referred.

We now have a different way of operating, because we tried in the past at Dounreay, Sellafield and other places to bring in outside contractors, and there was chaos in the mid-1990s as a consequence of the way in which that was handled. We now have a more rational structure, and a shadow agency will operate for a 12-month transitional period before the Bill takes effect, assuming that it passes all its stages. We can therefore foresee two outcomes. First, we will have a better way of handling nuclear waste and the nuclear legacy—the two are different—and secondly, that will be done in a way that is more commercially competitive but uses in many cases all the skills and capabilities that still reside in British Nuclear Fuels, the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority and British Energy.

Dr. Jack Cunningham: I support the legislation, as I have made clear, but does my hon. Friend recognise that it would be an error to rush into hasty decisions and short-term contracts in an industry as sensitive and critical as the nuclear industry? I beg him to think about the hasty rush into contractorisation in the railways, and remember its consequences. We should avoid that at all costs.

Mr. O'Neill: I regret it if I have given my right hon. Friend the impression that we want to return to something akin to the bad old days of the '90s. We have to recognise, however, that there may well be other types of management approach to the activity necessary to do the job, and that although the people in BNFL, the
 
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UKAEA and British Energy have a tremendous record across the world, they might not necessarily have all the skills and experience needed. The decisions that my right hon. Friend and I are discussing cannot be taken rapidly, but we have to start the process, and we must be far more systematic. Indeed, part of the burden of his remarks was that we have taken too long to get where we are now.

In the background, there will be the debate about nuclear power. It appears that there are those who would like the Government to rush to a decision on nuclear power, even if they cannot make up their own minds—or, in the case of the Liberals, have totally closed minds. Before any decisions are taken about nuclear power, we must be satisfied that the European Commission is prepared to accept the support package granted to British Energy when it was in crisis. We must also show potential investors that the UK has the capability to build and run nuclear generation capacity, and we must choose the type of reactor best suited to our needs. At the moment, there is a South African, an American and a Canadian option. Any one of those could stand up to close scrutiny, but it would be a rash person who would rush to judgment on them.

We also have to decide how many stations we want. The Conservatives built Sizewell and no more. They should have built more if they wanted a serious nuclear contribution, going on into what was then the next century. They had plenty of time, but they did not do it. Moreover, if we choose a reactor, we should commit ourselves to building several stations—and if we are to do that, we need to win the support not only of investors but, more importantly, of the people in whose areas the power stations will be located.

Such decisions cannot be taken overnight; they have to be taken over time. July is the earliest time for the European Union, and there is a succession of other factors. There will be a general election in between, but people should not make cheap political capital out of accusing the Government of indecision, because there are so many major decisions that need to be taken over time. I would be happy for decisions to be made earlier, but I do not want the wrong decisions to be made for the wrong reasons, and the reactors to be located in the wrong places.

Mr. Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): I agree that careful consideration is needed, but as the next nuclear plant is due to close as soon as 2008, does the hon. Gentleman not think that the Government need to make their mind up about that plant, if nothing else?

Mr. O'Neill: I am not talking about a piecemeal approach. The capacity of several of the Magnox stations is fairly small; their advantage is that they are connected to the national grid and that, by and large, they are in areas where there is a tolerance of their presence. We can come to decisions about them in the medium term.

I do not have the time to go into my reasons now, but I think that 2012 is the earliest possible date when—with all the planning problems, if there are any, are overcome, and the construction has been dealt with—we could expect to see something beginning to be tested and run. It will be a close-run thing, but I do not see us being
 
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able to do that any earlier. Perhaps this is a debate for another day, but it is important to have the wiring and the infrastructure in place in the United Kingdom, so that we can make the best of the assets that we have.

That is why I welcome the establishment of the British electricity trading and transmission arrangements—BETTA. I do not know what planet the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Mr. Stunell) lives on, but some of us are concerned about the prices that people have to pay for their electricity. The pool system operated on the basis of prices 40 per cent. higher than they should have been, and driving down those prices was the achievement of NETA—the new electricity trading arrangements.

I am glad that my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge—or at least, that is where she comes from. I think her constituency is—[Interruption.] Ah yes, it is Airdrie and Shotts, although my right hon. Friend actually comes from the other place. It is all very confusing; Lanarkshire is a complex area, and the geography is almost as difficult as nuclear power. As I said, I am glad to see my right hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Mrs. Liddell) in her place.

The achievement of NETA was to drive down electricity prices, not as much for the domestic consumer as we would have wished, but certainly a great deal, and now we want a trading system that covers the whole of the UK. Of course, there are problems. A number of my constituents work in Longannet power station, which produces 2,400 MW, and is one of the biggest in Europe. It has had considerable problems with the rapid changeover from NETA to BETTA, and I make a plea for some transitional arrangements that would soften the cost changes.

The situation is somewhat complex, and I wish those who will serve on the Standing Committee well; they will be able to go into that matter in some detail. All that I shall say now is that although the cost of sending electricity generated in the centre of Scotland to the markets of England will have to be paid for, the change in price will probably be rather more dramatic than necessary unless some kind of transitional arrangements are made. I record that now as a constituency point.

Some hon. Members have talked about combined heat and power. Large CHP plants are important, and those possibilities are not being properly addressed. ILEX has produced some research, and I know that the Secretary of State did not have much time, but I do not believe that she did that research justice this afternoon. Large CHP plants are highly efficient, and can make a contribution without the bedevilment of windmills and suchlike. They should be given some status in the context of the renewables obligation, because waste is a renewable facility.

There is ill-concealed delight on the Opposition Benches that the revising capacities of the House of Lords have been exercised before we have even had the opportunity to say anything about the Bill. I am interested to see that the Secretary of State already has an obligation to keep the lights burning. Some of us who are a wee bit longer in the tooth can remember how one of the authors of that provision made a major contribution to our thinking on energy policy 30 years ago. That was probably the last time that Lord Jenkin made any such contribution—and it was not that the
 
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Secretary of State should be responsible for energy policy, but that we should brush our teeth in the dark during the power cuts that resulted from the coal dispute in 1974.

That refined obligation inserted at the beginning of the Bill is nothing more than mischievous. The provisions covering the role of Ofgem, the regulator, are clear, and so is the link between Ofgem and the Secretary of State. If the lights went out and there were problems, after the first 45 minutes it would not be the power companies but the Secretary of State who, regardless of political party, would get the blame.

It is irresponsible to talk about Britain being in danger over security of supply—certainly for the next decade. My colleagues on the Select Committee and I have examined the nature of power cuts in recent years, and we have found that the problems were not akin to what took place in California or Italy. Mistakes were made, and there were maintenance problems, but scaremongering for simplistic political gain is irresponsible in such an important area.

I would like to think that the Bill will be seen merely as a contribution to the jigsaw puzzle of a new energy Britain, which will not create the emissions, such as greenhouse gases, that we create now. I hope that we will be able to move on. We have set ourselves a target for 2050, and one piece of legislation will not do everything. The Bill, however, is a modest start, and I welcome it.

6.20 pm

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