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Mr. Laurence Robertson: No matter how much is put into wind power, it will provide electricity only for a small percentage—perhaps only 30 per cent.—of the time. That is the difference. The nuclear industry provides 22 per cent. of all our electricity without failing us at all.
Norman Baker: There are a number of problems with that. First, we are back to wind power as the only renewable source of energy. Secondly, we are not yet clear whether nuclear new build is Conservative policy—perhaps we should assume that it is. Thirdly, other countries manage to generate much more than 22 per cent. of their energy from renewable sources. I am afraid that that is "three strikes and you're out" for the hon. Member for Tewkesbury on his intervention.
Mr. Weir: Equally, there is the point that nuclear energy can be interrupted. In fact, Torness in Scotland shut down for a considerable time because of mechanical problems.
Norman Baker:
That is absolutely true and the point should be borne in mind by those who advocate nuclear
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power. Unlike gas and coal generation of electricity, nuclear power cannot be switched on and off: it has to be kept running.
The third problem with nuclear power is nuclear waste. We have gigantic amounts of it in this country—
Mr. Robertson indicated dissent.
Norman Baker: The hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but we do. I could quote him parliamentary answers from successive Ministers. Furthermore, the Government's own "Consultation Paper on Proposals for Intermediate Level Radioactive Waste Substitution"—a catchy title—means that we will get more waste. The Government will increase the amount of nuclear waste in this country—that is what the consultation paper actually says. One would think that they would at least stop reprocessing, which increases the amount of nuclear waste. I asked the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she would stop reprocessing and to outline her views. The Minister for the Environment replied:
"Decisions about whether to reprocess spent nuclear fuel depend on the commercial judgment of the operator concerned."—[Official Report, 23 February 2004; Vol. 418, c. 146W.]
The commercial judgment of the operator? Where is the Government's bold policy on that? Do we or do we not want more nuclear waste? Do the Government not have a view on that? Is it simply a matter for some company somewhere to decide that they can land the taxpayer of the future with an environmental and a financial liability? That appears to be the Government's abdication of responsibility, so far as the nuclear industry is concerned.
When the Minister sums up, will he comment on The Sunday Times story—I hope that he will take note of it; he is obviously not listening—that appeared last Sunday, which suggested that 20 kg of radioactive material had gone missing from the midlands? Will he say whether it is true and what the Government are going to do about it? As the Minister is not listening, perhaps the Whip will tell him that I have raised that point and asked him to comment on it when he responds this evening.
This country needs a proper nuclear policy and a proper energy policy. Energy policy should be based on minimising, through energy conservation and energy efficiency, the amount of energy consumed and having proper investment pump-primed by Government intervention to get the renewables industry going. It should not be just an odd wind turbine here and there, or a pilot plant somewhere else. I mean a proper policy to get renewables up and running to meet the Government's target and beyond.
We should be looking even further to the coal industry to establish how coal generation could be made more acceptable. In another parliamentary question, I asked about the gasification of coal. Labour Members who represent mining constituencies might be interested to hear the answer. I asked
"what percentage of power was derived from gasified coal in 2003."
The Minister for Energy, E-Commerce and Postal Services replied:
"Currently in the UK there is no power produced through coal gasification."—[Official Report, 6 May 2004; Vol. 420, c. 736W.]
Why not? What have the Government been doing over the past six years to help the coal industry to ensure that our indigenous supply is used while at the same time meeting proper environmental standards? What has happened in the past six years? The Government need an energy policy, and they need it now.
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Dr. Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): We have had a rather odd debate about this important Bill. Claims have been made that wind power is the only trick in the magic box, that the Government claim that it will solve everything and that we should also examine other sources. As far as I am aware, the Government and Labour Members have never claimed that that is the future for renewables. Indeed, page 55 of the White Paper includes a timeline for a whole variety of renewables coming on stream over a period, which will create the mix of renewables that hon. Members have spoken about.
We must emphasise, however, that it is a race against time. We cannot just say that we should have a good think about various alternatives and discuss the best option over a period without taking any decisions. As my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Dr. Turner) explained, we are producing ever-increasing amounts of CO 2 , which is causing enormous and possibly irreversible damage to our environment. The question is whether we start the movement towards renewables now, with the technologies that we have and bring others on line later, or talk about the technologies that we would like to have and do nothing. If we are not careful, we will be here in 50 years talking about what sort of renewables we would like. However, we will not be here in 50 years if we carry on business as usual in terms of energy use, because this building will have been flooded.
The White Paper is ambitious and I was proud to have it published. I was proud that the Government emphasised a long-term aim of a 60 per cent. reduction in carbon emissions by 2050, but that is of course a target and not actual energy reduction. The changing picture of UK energy production requires huge action. It has been estimated that to meet the Government's target of 10 per cent. of energy from renewable sources by 2010, some 3,500 to 5,000 wind turbines would be required. That would fulfil only the wind element of the target of some 7 per cent., with the remaining 3 per cent. met by other renewable energy sources. That could involve a variety of systems, which could contribute to a secure and reliable system. As hon. Members have already mentioned, wind is intermittent, but other renewable sources—tide, wave and biomass—are not. It is a failure of the imagination to think that the only way to secure a baseline of power—and a different arrangement for the distribution of power—is by continuing to churn out power in the centralised way that we always have.
The DTI has said that the potential resource for wind in our territorial seas comes to 200 GW, or three times the present UK generating capacity. If we went beyond
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territorial waters, a further 130 GW, or twice the UK's present generating capacity of 68 GW, would be available. That estimate excludes any conflict with oil exploration or production, with aggregate extraction or with shipping lanes.
We have heard today that we need to replace nuclear capacity, and I agree with the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) that it is time that Conservative Front Benchers admitted, "We would like to build lots of nuclear power stations. Can we start tomorrow because that is our policy?" It is not tenable for the Conservatives to continue their patsy game.
Mr. Laurence Robertson: I have tried to resist intervening on this topic, but I must point out that no Government would write a cheque for the building of new nuclear power stations. We believe in the market and it would be up to the market. Our point is that it is up to the Minister to create the economic conditions that will encourage investment to achieve security of supply. The coal industry is under environmental threat, gas will have to be imported from long distances and we struggle to meet renewables targets, so it is up to the Government to say how security of supply will be achieved.
Dr. Whitehead: That clears that up, then. The hon. Gentleman and his colleagues have already said that they do not have a policy, but they do not agree with wind power or with encouraging renewable sources as the Government suggest. The Conservatives have implied that it would be a good idea to go down the nuclear route, but they will not come out and actually say that. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman has just confirmed that.
Even if we did replace the entire present nuclear capacity with wind turbines—I do not anticipate that that will happen—we would need some 10,000 to 15,000, and some people think that that is an unachievable target. Germany already has 14,000 wind turbines in operation and the country is not covered with them. Nor has Germany failed to make progress in wind turbine technology, because it has begun to install them over the past 15 years.
Capacity could also be derived from biofuels, as hon. Members have mentioned. About 5 per cent. of arable land, much of it currently fallow, would be needed to meet EU biofuel targets of 6.7 per cent. Tidal power, which has already been mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown, could provide twice the UK's generating capacity. The truth is that there is the capacity, both in base-load generation and intermittent generation, to produce a large proportion of the UK's energy supply through renewables.
Realistically, the choice is between business as usual, renewable technologies that are coming on stream—and ensuring that those work well—or simply going nuclear. Real licences and real generation are needed now. We have to overcome a number of hurdles. Hon. Members have already mentioned shipping lanes and the objections of the Ministry of Defence. I do not think that those are insuperable objections; they can be negotiated and discussed.
We must sort out the matter of renewable obligation certificates. The design of the renewable obligation system should not cause the system to come close to
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collapse because certain firms go out of business and do not meet their obligations. We must have a more stable system that produces a more stable price.
However, those are matters of detail. It is vital that we make use of all the renewable technologies we can, and make greater use of CHP. If the Government want to resist clause 120, I would suggest that they convert its provisions to a power for the Minister, so that it can remain in the Bill, along with clause 128.
Overall, I think the Bill is to be welcomed. It is part of a jigsaw, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ochil (Mr. O'Neill) said, but it represents real progress towards the 20 per cent. target for renewable energy by 2020. Wind power will not solve the problem, but the Bill will go a considerable way towards reaching that target.
9.7 pm
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