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Matthew Green (Ludlow) (LD): I accept that the Government have discussed with Opposition parties the order of consideration and where the knives will fall. There has been agreement about that, but there is clearly not agreement about the amount of time allowed for debate. Two days were allowed for the Report stage and Third Reading of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Bill. Three days have been allocated next week to consideration of the Pensions Bill, although that may be because the Government have not finished writing it. There is clearly a case for allowing more time to consider the Housing Bill. There is a great deal of interest from Labour Back Benchers, who have tabled a number of amendments and new clauses, but we are unlikely to reach all of them. The Government have not only sold the Bill short by failing to allow for proper discussion of amendments and new clauses, but have sold their own Back Benchers short. Labour Members want to discuss tenancy deposit schemes, compulsory leasing and so on, but will struggle to do so given the time allowed for debate.
 
11 May 2004 : Column 163
 

We cannot support the motion because it allows insufficient time to discuss the Bill. Whatever good will Ministers have shown about dividing up the available time, regrettably they do not have the clout to win sufficient time from the business managers, so we shall vote against the motion.

12.56 pm

Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): I wish to place on the record the fact that, yet again, the Government are giving the House pathetically inadequate time to deal with a Bill which, by any measure, is important. A mere glance at the Speaker's provisional list of amendments and the Government's suggested allocation of time reveals the shocking truth. One and a quarter hours, for example, has been allowed for amendments on housing conditions. A debate in the Chamber should provide Members of Parliament with an opportunity to express a view about an issue or set of issues. The first group of amendments on housing conditions—there can be few issues more important to our constituents—is a large one, yet the Government have insulted the House by offering 659 Members of Parliament one and a quarter hours to debate it. That is the extent of the Government's impertinence.

The situation is even worse when we reach the second group of amendments, on houses in multiple occupation, for which another hour and a quarter has been allowed. The group includes a large number of Government amendments and new clauses, and subsumed within it is a separate group of amendments on interim and final management orders. Limited time has been offered to all Members of Parliament, including Ministers and Opposition spokesmen. Home information packs are a controversial part of the Bill but, again, a mere hour and a quarter has been allowed for discussion of amendments, including many Government amendments.

Mr. Patrick McLoughlin (West Derbyshire) (Con): Is my right hon. Friend not being a little too generous to the Government? If we wish to have a Division, the time taken is subtracted from debating time. That is one way in which the Government put pressure on Labour Members who feel strongly about an issue not to have a vote.

Mr. Forth: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, because there is a danger that these things are becoming accepted as the way in which the House of Commons works. We are now operating under completely artificial constraints. There is no reason why our debate should take six and a half hours—we could take as long as we wanted. In fact, as you know, Mr. Speaker, there is provision for a business motion to be moved to allow us to continue our deliberations after 7 pm, and there is open-ended business following proceedings on the Bill. Bizarrely, unlimited time has been allowed for the subsequent debate on a House of Commons matter which, Mr. Speaker, is dear to your heart. The Order Paper states, I am happy to say, "Until any hour", yet on such a vital Bill, with dozens of Government amendments and dealing with crucial matters that affect our constituents' everyday lives, the Government have
 
11 May 2004 : Column 164
 
the impudence to say, "You, the House of Commons, will have only six and a half hours to consider all these matters." That is an outrage, but it is in danger of passing into our proceedings as though it were perfectly normal. Members of Parliament are expected to accept it, take it in their stride, shrug and say, "Obviously, I can't participate because there is so little time."

Any examination of the time proposed in the motion would show that it is an insult to the House of Commons and to the parliamentary process. For the Minister, in his insouciant way, to sit there and say, "Take it or leave it. This is it. This is all the Government believe the House of Commons should have", illustrates how far the House of Commons has fallen. It pains me to say so, but that, sadly, is the truth. Here we are, reduced to an hour and a quarter—the total time allocated to all Members of Parliament to debate a subject as important as, for example, home information packs.

Mr. Oliver Heald (North-East Hertfordshire) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that even to call this a programme is an insult? Programmes are supposed to be consensual; this is a guillotine.

Mr. Forth: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. That is true. I may have slipped into conceding that this is a so-called programme. My hon. Friend is right: they are systematic guillotines of all business. Today's motion is a prime example of what we have to put up with. It is increasingly difficult for us to look our voters in the face and claim that we are even beginning to do our job, as their representatives, in scrutinising legislation. In no way can these time limits allow us properly to scrutinise; in no way can proper speeches be made by Members of Parliament—points of criticism or points of elucidation. The Government do not allow us to do that any more.

Mr. David Wilshire (Spelthorne) (Con): My right hon. Friend is probably far too modest to say that such a motion is an attempt to gag him. The time being taken now—this is a criticism not of him, but of the Government—comes out of the time that the Government generously say we can have to debate other matters. That is another scandal.

Mr. Forth: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Many people try to gag me in many different ways, but my hon. Friend knows me well enough to know that that is usually not very successful. I shall be demonstrating that later today in the business that will come on, courtesy of the Government, well after 7 o'clock and may continue for some time thereafter. So gagging me is usually a fairly futile exercise, although it is tried from time to time, as my hon. Friend points out.

All in all, the motion is an egregious example of so-called programming, which is in fact systematic vicious guillotining of business in the House in order that the Government can get their business with a minimum of debate. I am glad we are opposing it.

1.2 pm

Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Con): The programme motion—or guillotine, as it is better called—is yet another example of the Government trying to remove
 
11 May 2004 : Column 165
 
from the House powers to hold them to account. I shall address the paltry one and a quarter hours that has been allocated to home improvement packs, which is a detailed, complex matter on which many Government amendments have been tabled. It is a matter that is crucial to consumers, to the housing market and the operation of that market, and to the industry—estate agents and solicitors. The House must get such a crucial matter right, and in one and a quarter hours there is not enough time properly to debate all the detailed amendments that have been tabled to that part of the Bill.

Within the total time, the Bill is supposed to get its Third Reading. It is outrageous and a removal of the powers of the House properly to hold the Government to account.

Question put:—

The House divided: Ayes 246, Noes 146.

Division No. 164 [1:03 pm


AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Allen, Graham
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Bailey, Adrian
Baird, Vera
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Battle, John
Beard, Nigel
Bell, Sir Stuart
Bennett, Andrew
Benton, Joe (Bootle)
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blizzard, Bob
Borrow, David
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Byers, rh Stephen
Cairns, David
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clelland, David
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cooper, Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dawson, Hilton
Dhanda, Parmjit
Doran, Frank
Drew, David (Stroud)
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Foster, rh Derek
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Foulkes, rh George
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hanson, David
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Healey, John
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Heyes, David
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David
Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
Hutton, rh John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Kaufman, rh Gerald
Keen, Alan (Feltham)
Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)
Kemp, Fraser
Khabra, Piara S.
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Luke, Iain (Dundee E)
McCabe, Stephen
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
MacDougall, John
McFall, John
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Meale, Alan (Mansfield)
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Alan
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moran, Margaret
Mountford, Kali
Mullin, Chris
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Organ, Diana
Perham, Linda
Pickthall, Colin
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris (Gravesham)
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Purchase, Ken
Purnell, James
Quin, rh Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Raynsford, rh Nick
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Ruane, Chris
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Shipley, Ms Debra
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Helen
Squire, Rachel
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Stringer, Graham
Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Touhig, Don (Islwyn)
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Claire
Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Betty (Conwy)
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Wood, Mike (Batley)
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. John Heppell and
Ms Bridget Prentice


NOES

Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Amess, David
Ancram, rh Michael
Arbuthnot, rh James
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Barrett, John
Beith, rh A. J.
Bellingham, Henry
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blunt, Crispin
Boswell, Tim
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)
Brazier, Julian
Breed, Colin
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Burnett, John
Burns, Simon
Burstow, Paul
Butterfill, Sir John
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Calton, Mrs Patsy
Cameron, David
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies (NE Fife)
Carmichael, Alistair
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Chope, Christopher
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Collins, Tim
Conway, Derek
Cotter, Brian
Curry, rh David
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Djanogly, Jonathan
Duncan, Alan (Rutland)
Evans, Nigel
Fabricant, Michael
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Flight, Howard
Flook, Adrian
Forth, rh Eric
Foster, Don (Bath)
Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodman, Paul
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Green, Matthew (Ludlow)
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Gummer, rh John
Hammond, Philip
Hancock, Mike
Hawkins, Nick
Hayes, John (S Holland)
Heald, Oliver
Heath, David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh David
Hendry, Charles
Hoban, Mark (Fareham)
Holmes, Paul
Horam, John (Orpington)
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson, Boris (Henley)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lamb, Norman
Lansley, Andrew
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lilley, rh Peter
Llwyd, Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Maclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Maples, John
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury & Atcham)
Maude, rh Francis
May, Mrs Theresa
Moss, Malcolm
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Oaten, Mark (Winchester)
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Paice, James
Portillo, rh Michael
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, John
Redwood, rh John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Angus (Moray)
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Rosindell, Andrew
Sanders, Adrian
Selous, Andrew
Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Richard
Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)
Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)
Soames, Nicholas
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Steen, Anthony
Streeter, Gary
Stunell, Andrew
Swire, Hugo (E Devon)
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Thurso, John
Tonge, Dr. Jenny
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Walter, Robert
Waterson, Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve (Northavon)
Whittingdale, John
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)
Willis, Phil
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Ann (Congleton)
Wishart, Pete
Young, rh Sir George

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. David Ruffley and
Mr. Mark Francois


Question accordingly agreed to.

 
11 May 2004 : Column 168
 

Ann McKechin (Glasgow, Maryhill) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I have just received information that an explosion has occurred at the ICL Plastics factory in my constituency. I understand that the building has collapsed, and reports mention more than 60 casualties, with many people still lying in the rubble. May I ask, through your good offices, if the appropriate Department will investigate at the earliest opportunity, and if a Minister will come to this House to make a statement as soon as more information is known?

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