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Mr. Laws: We support amendment No. 7, which deals with an anomaly in the original Bill, but we are not tempted by amendment (a), proposed by the hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne). He invited us to believe that it would unite new Labour and the Conservative party, and that is good enough reason for Liberal Democrat Members to be suspicious of it.

There are various practical problems with amendment (a). First, how likely is it that a young child who had committed enough crimes to be in prison would be deterred from similar behaviour by the fact that a payment would not be made to his or her CTF account—especially given that children cannot access those accounts until they are 18? I think that it is very unlikely that that would influence behaviour in any way.

Secondly, the amendment would be an enormously administratively complex and bureaucratic measure to enforce. For that reason, I am surprised that the Conservative party have proposed it. It could also create further anomalies between those young people who had committed crimes and been given custodial sentences, and those who had been given non-custodial sentences. Moreover, as Lord McIntosh explained in another place, it could create anomalies in respect of young people who had committed a crime but who were not in prison at the time of the reporting period, which is when the sanction proposed in the amendment would be implemented.

On top of that, the amendment could add a further penalty to the sentence being served by a young person. That does not seem sensible. Also, the Government's policy on CTF accounts is designed to give assets to children to help them, when they reach adulthood, to settle down, find employment and so on. To take that money away from children who—whether or not they have committed offences—are almost by definition the most vulnerable does not seem especially sensible.

For all those reasons, I am afraid that Liberal Democrat Members support the Government's position on this matter, and not the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Tatton.

Ruth Kelly: I am grateful to the hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne) for explaining the reasoning behind his amendment, and to the hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Laws) for answering his points so eloquently. He has almost saved me the need to respond to the amendment myself.
 
13 May 2004 : Column 508
 

As originally drafted, the Bill would have prevented payments being made to the CTF accounts of children held in legal custody. Child benefit is not paid for those children and the award of child benefit is the key eligibility requirement for CTF payments. As the hon. Member for Tatton pointed out, we have left ourselves the flexibility to decide whether there should be age-related payments above the age of seven in future. Should a Government decide to make payments to children at any age over 12, those children who are held in custody on the relevant birthday would not receive the payments.

We amended the Bill in the Lords to treat children in custody as entitled to child benefit purely for the purposes of the child trust fund. The amendment supports the view that children in custody should not receive those payments unless a responsible person informs the Inland Revenue that the child has been well behaved for the year prior to the relevant birthday.

Mr. George Osborne: Will the Minister deal with my point about the initial contribution to a child who opens a child trust fund when he or she is 14?

Ruth Kelly: I do not envisage any circumstances in which that scenario will apply. Children who move to the United Kingdom after the age of 12 will either get child benefit if eligible, and therefore access to the child trust fund, or, if they go straight into custody, the child benefit will not be awarded and a child trust fund account will not be available to them until they have left custody. That is an extremely unusual case and I cannot envisage a situation in which we would want to open a child trust fund for the first time for a child who is in custody.

The hon. Member for Yeovil explained the practical, bureaucratic and administrative problems with the proposal. The argument touches on the principle of the matter. Only a small number of teenagers are held in custody—

It being one hour after the commencement of proceedings, Mr. Deputy Speaker put the Question, pursuant to Order [this day].

Question put, That the amendment be made—

The House divided: Ayes 92, Noes 263.

Division No. 174 [2:40 pm


AYES

Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Arbuthnot, rh James
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bacon, Richard
Baron, John (Billericay)
Beresford, Sir Paul
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Brady, Graham
Brazier, Julian
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burns, Simon
Butterfill, Sir John
Cameron, David
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Collins, Tim
Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)
Djanogly, Jonathan
Fallon, Michael
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Flight, Howard
Flook, Adrian
Forth, rh Eric
Fox, Dr. Liam
Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
Garnier, Edward
Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Gummer, rh John
Hammond, Philip
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, rh David
Hendry, Charles
Hoban, Mark (Fareham)
Horam, John (Orpington)
Jack, rh Michael
Jenkin, Bernard
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, rh Oliver
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Lilley, rh Peter
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Maclean, rh David
Malins, Humfrey
May, Mrs Theresa
Mercer, Patrick
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Norman, Archie
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paterson, Owen
Portillo, rh Michael
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Redwood, rh John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, David
Selous, Andrew
Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)
Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)
Soames, Nicholas
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Spring, Richard
Streeter, Gary
Swayne, Desmond
Swire, Hugo (E Devon)
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Trimble, rh David
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Tyrie, Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Walter, Robert
Waterson, Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Wilshire, David
Young, rh Sir George

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Mark Francois and
Gregory Barker


NOES

Adams, Irene (Paisley N)
Ainger, Nick
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Baker, Norman
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Barron, rh Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, rh Margaret
Beith, rh A. J.
Bell, Sir Stuart
Bennett, Andrew
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Borrow, David
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)
Breed, Colin
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burnett, John
Burnham, Andy
Burstow, Paul
Cairns, David
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Caplin, Ivor
Carmichael, Alistair
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Coleman, Iain
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)
Cooper, Yvette
Cox, Tom (Tooting)
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dismore, Andrew
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Brian H.
Doughty, Sue
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Drown, Ms Julia
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)
Ewing, Annabelle
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flint, Caroline
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)
Gerrard, Neil
Goggins, Paul
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, David (Midlothian)
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Harvey, Nick
Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Healey, John
Heath, David
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)
Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)
Hoon, rh Geoffrey
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Ingram, rh Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Jowell, rh Tessa
Kaufman, rh Gerald
Keen, Ann (Brentford)
Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Lamb, Norman
Lammy, David
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laws, David (Yeovil)
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Christopher
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Love, Andrew
Luke, Iain (Dundee E)
McAvoy, Thomas
McCafferty, Chris
McDonagh, Siobhain
MacDonald, Calum
McFall, John
McIsaac, Shona
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWilliam, John
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Meacher, rh Michael
Milburn, rh Alan
Miliband, David
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Morgan, Julie
Mountford, Kali
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Hara, Edward
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Öpik, Lembit
Organ, Diana
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Perham, Linda
Picking, Anne
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Pugh, Dr. John
Purnell, James
Quin, rh Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)
Rendel, David
Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Ruddock, Joan
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Salter, Martin
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh John
Squire, Rachel
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Stringer, Graham
Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)
Teather, Sarah
Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)
Thurso, John
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Touhig, Don (Islwyn)
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Robert N.
Watts, David
Weir, Michael
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Betty (Conwy)
Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Wood, Mike (Batley)
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Younger-Ross, Richard

Tellers for the Noes:

Gillian Merron and
Mr. Jim Murphy


Question accordingly negatived.

 
13 May 2004 : Column 511
 

Mr. Deputy Speaker then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour. Lords amendment No. 7 agreed to [Special Entry].

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