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Gregory Barker (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): I warmly congratulate the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Love) on having the opportunity to present the Bill to the House. I gather that his experience working on the construction of the M1 extension in the 1970s led him to take an understandable and keen interest in the health and safety at work agenda, and he has pursued a noble crusade throughout his political life.

The Opposition recognise the vital importance of effective health and safety practices to ensure the well-being of all workers, regardless of their place of work. It is 30 years since the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 was passed, and it is entirely reasonable, from time to time, to seek to revise and update legislation to make sure that it remains relevant and pertinent.

Our guiding principles in considering the Bill are that its provisions should be clear, unbureaucratic and, perhaps most importantly, just and proportionate. It has two principal purposes, the first of which is to raise the maximum penalties available to the courts in respect of certain health and safety offences. It amends the penalty framework in section 33 of the Health and
 
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Safety at Work etc. Act in the following way: it raises the maximum fine that may be imposed in the lower courts to £20,000 for most health and safety offences; it makes certain offences currently triable only in the lower courts triable in either the lower or the higher courts; and it makes imprisonment an option for more health and safety offences in both lower and higher courts.

Mr. Forth: Does my hon. Friend share my nervousness when he sees a specific amount for a fine or a penalty in such a Bill? Does he share my view that, paradoxically, that builds in inflexibility, which may be undesirable in the long run, and that it is better, if possible, to express penalties in terms of levels, which can be adjusted by statutory instrument? Does he not think that that may be a weakness in the Bill?

Gregory Barker: That is a well made point, and it is no surprise that it comes from my right hon. Friend. One of our principal concerns is the rigidity implicit in the Bill. That is why we believe that it requires stringent scrutiny, not least because of the impact that it could have on small businesses, which might not be able to withstand such fines. The net effect might be not to improve best practice or standards for workers in such a firm, but to drive the firm out of business, leaving family wage earners without a job. As for the maximum fine, the power to impose a fine of up to £20,000 is already available for some offences under the 1974 Act. The Bill extends that power to other offences that could be considered comparable. In Committee, we shall want to make sure that those offences are indeed comparable.

We are concerned about the provisions that are likely to lead to increased custodial sentences. That is a fairly big departure. The Government are presiding over a prison system at breaking point, and we shall want to examine the detail of that part of the Bill very closely in Committee to ensure that our test of proportionality is met.

The CBI, the Federation of Small Businesses and the Institute of Directors have all welcomed the Bill to varying degrees, but they all have concerns about those provisions. We understand and appreciate those concerns, and the knock-on impact that the provisions could have on jobs, enterprise and wealth creation. In Committee, we shall look closely at those elements and seek assurances.

The second purpose of the Bill is to amend the penalty for the main offence under the Employers' Liability (Compulsory Insurance) Act 1969—an employers' failure to insure in respect of liability to employees for injury or disease sustained in the workplace. It also extends the time limit for bringing related prosecutions. That is a difficult area. Hon. Members will be aware of the rise in the cost of employers' liability insurance under the present Government. Indeed, some businesses, especially small businesses, find it impossible to obtain the right sort of liability insurance at all. For example, I am informed that in Northern Ireland, construction and scaffolding companies in particular find it impossible to obtain standard commercial insurance on anything like commercial terms. There may be a time bomb waiting to go off.

Mr. Forth: My hon. Friend is just getting into his stride, but may I remind him of something? He may not
 
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recall, because I cannot remember whether he was in the House at the time, that when such a measure was attempted on a previous occasion, the Conservatives opposed it for the same reasons as he is now giving. Given the extreme difficulty that many companies, especially small companies, were experiencing in obtaining employers' liability insurance, increasing the penalties on them at the same time seemed very poor timing, to say the least. Does my hon. Friend expect, as I do, an indication from the Minister about whether the Government judge that it is now sufficiently easy to get the coverage to make the increased penalties appropriate? If the Minister is unable to do that, will my hon. Friend share my disappointment and extreme reservations about the Bill?

Gregory Barker: I hope that the Minister has heard that and will tackle those remarks in her speech. I also hope that she can inform hon. Members about the rigorous market testing and research that the Government will undertake before supporting the Bill. That is important.

I intervened on the opening remarks of the hon. Member for Edmonton to ask whether he believed that the liability lapse occurs through error or maladministration in small businesses, through simple inability to get or afford insurance or because there is a gap between the lapse of one policy and the commencement of another. A policy could lapse when small businesses are out in the market trying to find one and hoping to secure something. Does he believe that the liability lapse is simply down to unscrupulous practice?

Clearly, we have no truck with unscrupulous employers who have no intention of getting liability insurance and are trying to cut corners or make a quick buck the wrong way. However, we are worried about the small, struggling employer who is trying to do the right thing but is unable to get the liability insurance that he seeks in the commercial world.

Mr. A. J. Beith: Surely the hon. Gentleman would not condone even a hard-pressed small business man's sending an employee into potentially dangerous working conditions, for example on a roof or with chemicals, when the insurance was not in place.

Gregory Barker: Of course I would not condone it. However, I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman agrees that that is more understandable and less reprehensible than a criminal case in which someone has no intention of ever getting a policy. It is up to the courts to interpret that, examine each instance and determine an appropriate final penalty for a thoroughly disreputable employer and for one who perhaps falls on the wrong side of the law but in more mitigating circumstances. Again, I refer to the position in Northern Ireland, where the insurance is simply unavailable. It is difficult to generalise when specific circumstances apply to each case. However, let us be clear that we are in no way, shape or form condoning the illegal actions of unscrupulous employers. That is not the concern that we are raising.

There is an additional point that increasing the penalties on firms will make the liability insurance more expensive. It will increase firms' liability and their
 
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premiums will rise. That could have a knock-on effect of putting insurance further beyond the reach of the smallest firms. We need to ensure that we have considered all those matters before putting the measure on the statute book. That requires close scrutiny in Committee.

The Bill amends the Employers' Liability (Compulsory Insurance) Act 1969 by replacing the maximum fine of £2,500 for each day prosecuted with a maximum fine of £20,000 for the period for which the charge is brought. It gives the Secretary of State the power to increase the fine through subordinate legislation. It extends the time limit for bringing prosecutions under section 5 of the 1969 Act. The current time limit is six months from when the offence was committed. The new time limit will be six months from the date on which the prosecutor considers that he has sufficient evidence to justify the proceedings. The Bill also provides that no prosecution can be brought more than five years after the commission of the offence. We shall want to study those changes in detail in Committee.

To sum up, Her Majesty's Opposition will not oppose the Bill but will let it proceed to Committee. We shall use that time to give it the scrutiny that it needs and deserves. We shall have no truck with bad practice or illegal practice.

Mr. Love: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments about allowing the Bill to proceed. Does he accept that if we do not take steps to crack down on rogue employers, they will taint other employers? There is a strong rationale for the Bill.

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