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Malcolm Wicks: This has been a good debate, genuinely well informed and authoritative—a proper Third Reading debate. The wide range of contributions has revealed a fair degree of consensus on what we are trying to achieve—a consensus that I hope another place will note.
We have heard contributions from all over the United Kingdom, from Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England. Although I cannot comment on all the points made during the debate, we heard good speeches from the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson), my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton, South (Mr. Tynan) and the hon. Member for Northavon (Mr. Webb). Last night, in private—because it was during Report stage—I gave the hon. Gentleman gentle advice about not being too cynical. I thought that the constructive tone of his remarks today showed that he had taken my advice, for which I thank him. My right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) made an important contribution, as did the hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Mr. Fallon). I shall write to the hon. Gentleman to reassure him that an investor in a company who has not been involved in any wrongdoing in relation to pensions will not be penalised.
We also heard important contributions from my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, North (Mr. Rooney), the hon. Member for Perth (Annabelle Ewing) and my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Kevin Brennan), whom I thank for his generosity. The hon. Member for North Antrim (Rev. Ian Paisley) helped to make this a United Kingdom occasion, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Anniesland (John Robertson). The hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Redcar (Vera Baird) and my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Miss Begg) also spoke, as did the hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne). I hope that I have left no one out—I want this to be a proper safety net.
Mr. Waterson: What about the Secretary of State?
Malcolm Wicks:
The hon. Gentleman anticipates my list of "thank yous". We have heard lots of "thank yous"
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today, which is important, because we have had help from many people. I thank all right hon. and hon. Members present, especially those who have contributed to the debate, the members of the Standing Committee and our two able Chairmen. I have been aided by an excellent Parliamentary Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Inverclyde (David Cairns). I cannot believe that he would ever make a sedentary comment, but I believe that yesterday, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you commented that traditionally PPSs are silent. As a former Minister for Lifelong Learning, I shall find an appropriate course on which to send my hon. Friend, to teach him that silence and humility that will make him an even more excellent PPS. He has many duties: at one stage, I wished him to say something to Opposition colleagues on the Standing Committee, and he went across, much to the amusement of his Labour peers. Since it doubled the number of Members on the Tory Benches, I thought that there was an important parliamentary purpose in doing so.
Not merely because I was prompted to do so, I thank my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who has given us invaluable advice during the passage of the Bill. As I said yesterday, not only is the Bill the parent of the pension protection fund, but, because of my right hon. Friend's drive over many months, it contains the assistance scheme that has so dominated our debate, both in the past and today. I thank also the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesham (Mr. Pond). He and I have known each other for many years. This is the first Bill that he has taken through Standing Committee, and I hope that the experience has not put him off, as it should not be his last. One day this week, he appeared before a Select Committee in the morning, put in a full day's debate on the Report stage of the Bill, then, because our Department covers work as well as pensions, he responded to the Adjournment debate. He is a role model for us all.
We should thank all those who work behind the scenes, but I thank my officials in particular. Last week, the hon. Member for Eastbourne said that when I heard a certain piece of news there must have been expletives in the air. Perhaps too primly, I replied that I do not go in for expletives, and I am sure that my officials will testify to the fact that I approach my task with even temper and good humour most of the time—occasionally, anyway. I would like to thank them, parliamentary counsel and everyone else.
I would like to take a moment to reflect on the journey the Bill has made through this House. Many hon. Members are about to make other journeys, so I will not detain the House too long. Three months ago, we introduced a Bill that, among other measures, made provision for a pension protection fund and a pensions regulator, which will significantly increase the protection offered to pension scheme members. We explained that the pensions regulator will be flexible and proactive and will focus on tackling the risks to members' benefits, while enabling well-administered and secure schemes to continue without unnecessary burden. We explained that the PPF will mean that, for the first time ever, individuals in defined benefit schemes, usually known as final salary schemes, based in the United Kingdom can rest assured that they will
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always receive a meaningful pension, even if their company goes bust and leaves the pension scheme underfunded.
We explained that over 10 million members—a modest estimate—of defined benefit schemes could benefit from the security and peace of mind afforded by the pension protection fund. In addition to those 10 million people, we must remember their families, who also rely on that security. However, Mr. Speaker, you will remember that Opposition Members declined to give the Bill a Second Reading. We also wish to remind them that, if my history is right, they declined to give a Second Reading to the Bill that set up the national health service.
Gregory Barker: I hate to interrupt the flow of the Minister's speech but, to be fair and for the record, does he not recall that the Opposition voted for a reasoned amendment, and did not simply decline to give the Bill a Second Reading? At this late hour, I would hate him to misrepresent the facts.
Malcolm Wicks: I am not a legal expert, but I have enough education to know the meaning of the phrase "decline to give the Bill a Second Reading".
In Committee, Members from all parties worked hard to scrutinise the Bill, including Opposition Members, who played a full and proper part in the proceedings. There was a highly informed and useful debate in Committee—it was not just a rubber-stamping exercise, and we discussed many issues. For example, we undertook to consider the proposal to remove the limited price index from defined contribution schemes when people are choosing an annuity. The new ombudsman may refer any question of law arising for determination in connection with cases to the High Court or, in Scotland, to the Court of Session. Pensioners as well as active members should be involved in the selection process for member-nominated trustees, so we have made a number of changes following scrutiny of the Bill in Committee.
On Report, we introduced a requirement on employers to consult their employees, trade unions or other representatives before making significant changes to pension schemes. In the early stages, however, we faced one overriding challenge— the issue of people who had already lost their pension and for whom the PPF has come too late. We were determined to do all that we could, but it was essential that we did not commit ourselves to writing a blank cheque. We were not willing to commit to a solution until we knew more about the scale and nature of the problem. While Government cannot stand behind private agreements—they cannot nationalise financial risk—and do not accept legal liability, we recognise that that group deserves Government help. It is the right thing to do and will greatly increase confidence in pensions.
We have therefore started a process to set up a financial assistance scheme with £400 million of public money spread over 20 years. The hon. Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts) banged his fists on the Dispatch Box at one stage, and demanded an end to claims of "No false hope". Following careful assessment, the assistance plan has now been announced and will bring true hope and, ultimately, true help for those who have lost out and suffered such a great injustice.
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Members of the House have an opportunity this evening—I hope we will all make use of the opportunity—to support an extremely important Bill. I contrast what we are proposing with the position of the Opposition earlier. The hon. Member for Eastbourne was very good in Committee. He honed the art of quoting other people's views—many late nights with a fountain pen. Today the hon. Gentleman and his colleague the hon. Member for Tatton quoted from the Association of Consulting Actuaries report. I regret to say, and I am sure this was simply because of the lateness of the hour, they did not quote it in full. I shall quote the views from the survey on the pension protection fund:
"Encouragingly for the Government, a clear majority of firms offering defined benefit schemes are in favour of the proposed Pension Protection Fund (PPF), one of its key new proposals in the Pensions Bill. The importance of offering greater security to defined benefits scheme members was mentioned by many firms. Support for the PPF has grown since the publication of the Pensions Bill."
Although we listen with great care to detailed points from those on the Opposition Benches, we will never forget that it was a Conservative Government who presided over pensions mis-selling on a massive scale. They did not provide any money to sort it out. Nearly 2 million cases have had to be reviewed and it has taken £12 billion in pension industry money to resolve. People in the industry are still working to clear up the mess. We will remember that.
It is interesting that the hon. Member for Eastbourne had to tell us that he could not commit his party to supporting the PPF, even at this stage. I hope the Opposition will nevertheless support the Bill this evening.
With the new assistance plan, as with many other successes, many people are claiming parentage. We had an unlikely candidate, the Leader of the Opposition, who apparently came in late, mentioned it once or twice at Prime Minister's questions and is now the proud parent of the assisted pensions scheme. Success has many fathers, but there is no Tory DNA in the new assistance plan.
Although I am being gentle with the hon. Member for Northavon today, I remind him of his cynicism when he said of the ASW and other workers on 12 January that
"the Government will do precisely nothing, and take many months to do it . . .Would it not have been more honest and generated less false hope to have told them that at the start?"—[Official Report, 12 January 2004; Vol. 416, c. 513.]
Those were the words of the Liberal Democrat spokesman. We have seen the plan from the Labour Government.
Finally, I am proud that it is a Labour Government who are introducing the Pensions Bill. Sometimes the term "social security" is used as technical benefit jargon, but "social security" has a meaning in the English language. It is about providing individuals and their families with a real sense of financial security. The pension protection fund will one day be regarded by historians as one of the proudest achievements of this Labour Government, because it brings a real sense of assurance and security to 10 million scheme members and their families. It is vital. Social security is also the right description of the assistance scheme that will be developed in the months to come.
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In Committee there were one or two musical references. There was a rather serious one yesterday when my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mr. Purchase) mentioned the great Woody Guthrie, in the context of a song saying that one could rob people with a pen. Woody Guthrie is also known for the song, "This Land is Your Land". We have been speaking about the people's pensions, and we will protect them.
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