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Alun Michael: The hon. Gentleman makes his point effectively. It is always difficult for the police to balance the different requirements and, indeed, the different calls on their time from hon. Members, but I am sure that, as a result of recent events, the police are well aware that there is an issue here that is not just about casual labour—it is about a number of much more serious things. Indeed, the Home Secretary and members of his team have made it clear how important they regard those issues.

The hon. Member for Boston and Skegness referred to the regulatory impact assessment and was concerned about the cost to small-scale providers. That issue needs to be addressed. On the one hand, we want a licensing system under which the charge and the means for assessing it are as simple as possible, while on the other we must ensure that we do not set up a perverse incentive for smaller-scale providers. That is one of the issues that we want the partners to discuss both before the establishment of the agency, and within the agency, as soon as the shadow board is in place.

The hon. Member for Boston and Skegness referred to accommodation costs and, if I understood him correctly, made us an offer that we cannot refuse—free accommodation in his constituency. We do not envisage that the accommodation will have to be in Whitehall, so we are open to offers, even from Boston and Skegness. I can assure him that we shall certainly not be gold-plating the accommodation costs. Currently, all the costs are of an indicative nature. The very fact that the board will include representatives of those who will have to pay the licensing fees will, I hope, help to ensure proper scrutiny of the proposals so that costs are kept to a minimum. That will obviously have a knock-on effect on licence fees.

Mr. Dobson : The concept that the licensing system should pay for itself seems reasonable, but this point has just occurred to me: is there any possibility that some of the money obtained from prosecuting the villains could also be used to finance the enforcement system, on the polluter pays principle? The villains are the polluters.

Alun Michael: My right hon. Friend has vast experience of hypothecation and of attempts to persuade the Exchequer that any income it derives should be directed back to the activity whence that money came, so he can anticipate my answer. However, we have acknowledged that as well as operating the licence system and ensuring that those who are licensed obey the licensing terms, there is also a need for enforcement in respect of people who are not licensed or who have had their licence withdrawn. The Government should take responsibility for that, to ensure that inappropriate burdens are not put on the licence fee and on legitimate gangmasters.

Mr. Luff: Until the right hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) put his question, I had not thought about that point either. In fact, there is a precedent in government. We are told that speed cameras pay for themselves and surpluses go to the
 
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Exchequer, so perhaps the fines under this system could pay for the authority and the surplus could go to the Exchequer.

Alun Michael: It is clear that the hon. Gentleman has not thought that idea through. He would not have made that proposal when his party was in government. I was involved in the discussions about the return of money from speed camera fines and can tell him that it takes an awful lot of evidence to persuade the Treasury that it should go along with such proposals. I do not think we need to take that route.

There are advantages to the Exchequer in the prosecution of people who do not pay tax and so on, which create an incentive for the application of the law in different ways. As I said, we have looked into DEFRA's enforcement role, as well as into co-operation between different enforcement agencies. In fact, groups will be set up under the Bill to ensure that the agency liaises with labour providers and other enforcement agencies. The agency will set up those liaison groups to ensure that the process is joined up and that the groups are practical and effective and do not merely fulfil a theoretical requirement. I hope the hon. Gentleman will accept that the important thing is that the process should be rooted in what happens in practice and that the different interests of enforcers and labour providers, as well as the overall policy on the operation of the licence system, are considered in the liaison groups. The board will bring all the significant players together and we have designed the Bill so that we can achieve a balance between specific and overall interests.

The hon. Member for Boston and Skegness asked about retailers absorbing costs. It is important that we have an indication from the supermarkets, the British Retail Consortium and others of their commitment to the licence process and the need to follow it through in practice. We shall be discussing that with them.

In response to another point made by the hon. Gentleman, I can promise that we shall hold the fullest consultation with the industry and ensure that everyone has a chance to comment on the process as it is developed. We want fast access to information on the ground, because unless the police and others who operate the licence system are able to get information quickly, we shall be unable to draw a firm line between legitimate, licensed gangmasters and those who operate outside the law, which is obviously the focus that we need.

That process will be helped by the work that Home Office Ministers are undertaking to simplify and clarify the authorising of overseas workers in this country, so that they can show that they are in the UK legitimately. The system has been over-complex in the past, but the need to demonstrate legitimacy is fully understood and that is important for labour providers and other employers.

I think that I have referred to the liaison groups and covered most of the points raised in the debate.

Mr. Simmonds: Will the Minister deal with the final point that I made about the implications of the seasonal agricultural workers scheme, which is referred to in
 
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annexe 3 of the regulatory impact assessment? I understand why it has been excluded, at least initially, from the provisions in the Bill, but I hope that he will deal with several of the issues that I highlighted in my remarks.

Alun Michael: I am happy to consider the hon. Gentleman's points in detail. We believe that the seasonal agricultural workers scheme is carefully designed, so the possibility of it being used as cover for illegitimate activity would not arise. However, I am happy to reconsider that and to write to him with the details.

I referred to the Bill as creating an antisocial behaviour order for gangmasters. The licensing scheme will provide a further tool for us to use in the fight against the exploitative activities of illegitimate gangmasters—those who are not concerned with obeying the law. It provides robust enforcement powers to support that objective.

The Bill also ensures a high degree of stakeholder involvement in the detailed design and operation of the new licensing arrangements. I reinforce the point made at the beginning of the debate by my hon. Friend the Member for West Renfrewshire when he outlined the Bill's impact and how it would work. It creates a new non-departmental public body to operate the licensing scheme. We want to make sure that it is not an unnecessary piece of bureaucracy and that the Bill will bring together key stakeholders and the Government to steer and operate the new licensing arrangements so that those who provide labour do so in a way that is within the law and is not exploitative. Therefore, the names of the providers of labour who act properly and within the law will not be tarnished by the activities of the lawbreakers, the thugs and those who have no respect for the law.

It is important that there should be commitment to the licensing scheme from all sectors of the industry, from producer to supermarket. The representation on the board secures that engagement. The involvement of stakeholders will also ensure that the conditions attached to a licence balance our wish to see an end to the exploitation of vulnerable workers with the need to ensure that the licensing arrangements do not place unnecessary burdens on labour providers and others in the fresh produce supply chain. That is why the licence fees will be set by the licensing authority in discussion with the Government.

Reference has already been made to the fact that the indicative costings suggest that the fee could be between £1,750 and £2,250 for a three-year licence, but those figures will be need to be reviewed once we have a clearer idea of the conditions that the licensing authority thinks should be attached to a licence. Again, that involves the engagement of all sides of the industry. Although the licensing authority will have day-to-day responsibility for the operation of the licensing scheme, the Government will also have an important role to play. In particular, we will establish and fund an independent appeals mechanism for the licensing process. That will ensure that labour providers can appeal against decisions taken by the authority involving the issue and withdrawal of licences.

At the beginning of the debate, my hon. Friend the Member for West Renfrewshire stressed the importance of enforcement, as others have. Co-ordinated action
 
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and being proactive are important. We will also put in place robust enforcement arrangements to deal with the criminal offences created by the Bill. It gives the Secretary of State responsibility for the appointment of enforcement officers. That ensures that officers from existing enforcement agencies can utilise the new criminal offences to tackle gangmasters when this helps to deliver departmental enforcement objectives—in a sense, the antisocial behaviour order aspect of the Bill. We are also considering making additional resources available to increase the number of enforcement officers operating in this area, and we will be looking to secure police co-operation when appropriate.

Enforcement activities need to be intelligence-led. The powers of entry and arrest provided for under the Bill will be used when necessary, but I reassure the House that all enforcement officers will be trained appropriately before they are given the authority to exercise these powers. There may be considerable merit in including housing enforcement officers within the Bill's ambit, effectively to facilitate a one-stop shop approach to licensing and enforcement, but we have made it clear where the different responsibilities lie. That will also ensure that enforcement officers have ready access to information on gangmaster activities flowing from the licensing scheme.

Information sharing will be a key element in the successful introduction of the licensing scheme, so the Bill creates a two-way flow of information between the Government and the licensing authority. Again, that will ensure that the authority can take fully informed decisions on whether a licence should be issued or withdrawn. It will also provide valuable intelligence for Government enforcement bodies.

The Bill also provides for robust maximum penalties. I said that the intention is that if an offence is committed, prosecution can follow rapidly, but should there be repeat offences, we would hope that the courts use the higher penalties quickly to burn off any idea that offenders can get away with it, because that would do great damage to the licensing scheme and, again, provide succour to those who do not respect the law.

It has been underlined that much of the licensing scheme remains to be clarified in regulations. I have stressed that despite our wish to see licensing introduced as quickly as possible, there will be full consultation at every stage of the regulation-making process. We intend to set out our ideas as early as possible so that that discursive opportunity is used and that we get it right. That will enable us to move quickly once the legislation is on the statute book. The key regulations on the operation of the licensing authority will be presented to the House for detailed consideration. That is appropriate and reflects our wish to ensure that everyone has a chance to consider the detail of the new arrangements.

We have come a long way since Second Reading, and we still have some way to go before a fully operational licensing scheme can be introduced. However, I hope that the House agrees that the Bill provides a firm foundation. We understand the industry's need for a flexible labour supply, but that flexibility cannot be provided at the expense of workers. Licensing will oblige gangmasters to operate their businesses ethically. It will create a clear distinction between legal and illegal operators and strengthen the ability to enforce the law
 
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in a variety of ways. It provides the ability to ensure that those gangmasters who operate without a licence are prevented from doing so and that legitimate labour providers know that those who are willing to use any means to undercut them will be put out of business in short order. That will strengthen the legitimate part of the business. There can be no place for unlicensed gangmasters in future.

As many hon. Members said, the Bill is characterised by the tremendous spirit of co-operation displayed by all those involved with it. That has helped to ensure its speedy development and passage to this point. I hope that that spirit of co-operation continues and that the Bill successfully completes its passage through Parliament. Indeed, I hope that the spirit of co-operation will also help to guarantee the success of the new licensing arrangements. I commend the Bill to the House as a positive response to the problems caused by gangmasters who are willing to exploit those who cannot look after themselves.

12.3 pm

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