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Mr. Ingram: I do not accept that there is distrust of, or lack of confidence in, the Army. Some feel that they have a particular grievance because of the sad tragedies with which they have had to deal, but that should not be extended across the whole community. To do so would constitute an unfair criticism.

The hon. Lady is right that the Collinson family are no nearer to discovering the truth. The inquest is a mechanism by which that may be achieved, but whatever course is adopted, there is no certainty that the truth will materialise. Perhaps we shall never get to the truth.

The hon. Lady mentioned the investigation into James Collinson's death, which is being conducted by the special investigations branch and the Royal Military Police. Following a meeting only an hour and a half ago I have checked again and found that the Surrey police did have primacy, as they should have had in the other three cases.

The hon. Lady said that the lack of a public inquiry was prolonging the agony. I could have decided—and have been asked—to arrange an inquiry into only one case, into all four, into 50 or into some greater number. An inquiry into that greater number would have been very long-running, while an inquiry focusing on a specific group would no doubt have led to repeated judicial requests to open the lines of inquiry elsewhere.
 
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It is important to ensure that we employ the right processes. I would have expected the hon. Lady to acknowledge all we have done through the report—the director of operational capability, the Army learning account and the new adult learning inspectorate. She should at least give us some credit for taking on the issues and trying to make things better.

Mrs. Joan Humble (Blackpool, North and Fleetwood) (Lab): I pay credit to my right hon. Friend for introducing openness and accountability to the initial training regime, but will he acknowledge that openness and accountability, and indeed the duty of care, should extend beyond that regime and must follow young people when they go into their units and regiments so that their parents can be reassured about the responsibility of the Army? When, tragically, a young person such as my constituent Derek McGregor dies in barracks, his family too should be able to get the answers they so desperately need.

Mr. Ingram: I agree and I think that that applies to any untimely death. We have a responsibility to try to give the best possible information to the families of victims. I approve of my hon. Friend's approach, but there is unquestionably a strong duty of care and responsibility throughout the armed forces, for the simple reason that if there were not, we would have a failed, broken system. Soldiers depend on a command structure that knows what it is doing and can deal authoritatively with difficult situations. Providing proper resources will help to ensure that people work as a cohesive team as far as is possible. The chain of command has that duty of care and I think that it is discharged extremely well. We are not perfect. Mistakes will happen, and when they do we must find out the truth.

Mr. Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con): Of course, our hearts go out to those killed in Iraq and especially to the families of the young people who lost their lives at Deepcut. Does the Minister agree that the Adjutant-General and his staff are delivering for this country the best military training available anywhere in the world? If, like me, the Minister has spent time with the Army training regiment in Winchester or at the Army foundation college in Harrogate, he will have been amazed at the commitment of those young people and their families, who have complete confidence in the Army. It would be a travesty if this tragedy led to a lack of confidence among the families of young people who are considering joining the military.

Mr. Ingram: I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. That is why I wrote to more than 200 Members of this House and the other place to invite them to visit training establishments. To date, only about 12—a handful of Members—have taken up that opportunity, although several proposed visits were cancelled. I wish that everyone would make such a visit. Like the hon. Gentleman and me, they would find at those establishments tremendous commitment right through the command structure—not just among instructors but, importantly, among the young people. I had the
 
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privilege of being involved in a passing out parade and talking to the parents. They spoke of how the young ones whom they gave into the care of the Army were turned around into mature, forward-looking, confident and well-trained young adults with a future ahead of them. We could all learn from making such contact.

Mr. Eric Joyce (Falkirk, West) (Lab): I welcome my right hon. Friend's remarks about the potential improvement in systems. Of course, it is true that all systems can be improved, but does he agree that it is vital that we do not forget that the Army Training and Recruiting Agency is an enormously successful training organisation and that its training regime is among the most systematic of any employer, not just in this country but in the world? It is precisely that on which the performance of our troops in the field is built and based.

Mr. Ingram: My hon. Friend's experience gives him intimate knowledge of this issue. He is right about ATRA, which is not only a high achiever but respected worldwide for what it achieves. That is why we are consistently asked to help other countries to develop training regimes that meet the high standards and quality that we set. There is nothing more that I can add to that eulogy. There is much in ATRA's training regime of which we can be proud.

Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I am encouraged that all the letters, parliamentary questions, Prime Minister's questions and meetings, along with the Adjournment debate on this issue, have finally caused some movement in the Ministry of Defence. Nevertheless, does the Minister accept that resisting a public inquiry into the four deaths at Deepcut just because of the many other deaths in the Army simply is not acceptable? The Government should be willing to investigate any death in uncertain circumstances. Does he recognise that we are calling for a public inquiry into the four deaths at Deepcut specifically to answer the question of why and how these young people died? Does he accept that if one's child were shot five times in the stomach or twice in the head, one would reasonably expect the Government to leave no stone unturned in answering the question whether the death was the result of murder, manslaughter or suicide and why it happened?

Finally, Bob Quick, author of the fifth report and deputy chief constable of Surrey police, confirmed to me today that, although it may not be appropriate for him to define the type of inquiry, he believes that it must be broad and independent. Does the Minister accept that we need to investigate the past in order to understand the future? Does he further understand that if the Government refuse to provide an inquiry of their own volition, they are likely to be forced to do so by a court?

Mr. Ingram: I appreciate the intensity of interest and effort on the part of the hon. Gentleman, who has been very active on this issue; indeed, he and I have discussed it many times privately, on the Floor of the House and elsewhere. I am intrigued by what he said about the comments of Bob Quick, the senior police officer involved. Mr. Quick is not saying that what we are doing is wrong and I doubt whether the hon. Gentleman asked him that question. Mr. Quick would recognise that we
 
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have a well-structured approach to dealing with the current and future situation; indeed, that is what the Surrey police asked of us. They asked for a broad inquiry into the duty of care regime and for oversight, both of which the ALI will provide. I do not wish to get into an unnecessary conflict with those outside this House who are commenting on the matter, but I shall find out just what the view of the Surrey police is.

In trying to find out the facts of the situation and why someone died in a given set of circumstances, the police engaged two independent forensic teams of experts to look at that, so that one could check on the other. They could not come to the firm conclusions that other people may have come to. Some of those people have experience but have not published their findings. Others may just have a view on all this. Through their intensive and comprehensive approach, the police have trawled over all this, both in forensic terms and in speaking to all the people about the day of, or the day prior to, the sad event. Therefore, I recommend that those who have not read the Surrey police report read it and await the inquest into James Collinson's death.

Harry Cohen (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): The reasons for the four deaths at Deepcut remain obscure, which is unsatisfactory, but may I question the Minister on two aspects of his statement? First, I welcome the role that he is giving the adult learning inspectorate. That concerns training, but what about improving counselling for members of the armed forces? Counselling should not be seen as a sign of weakness. For example, people in the upper and middle classes use it regularly. Why cannot we have improved counselling?

Secondly, the Minister acknowledges that the families were treated poorly. Why cannot we have better treatment? Will that be addressed so that families are treated better when there is a bereavement? For example, can we have bereavement counselling, a   24-hour link to a liaison officer for the unit concerned and access to all the information in relation to a death?

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