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Mr. Allan: I was pleased to offer my support and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael) to the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Helen Jackson). We examined the issue in Committee, but it remained, to a degree, unresolved.
Unlike the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth), I am in favour of pre-legislative scrutiny, though I recognise that it does not cure all known ills. The consultation process brought to light different views from the voluntary sector. I understand why that created a difficulty and why, given the broad range of voluntary sector organisations, it would not be appropriate to place all of them in the category of those required to respond on a statutory basis.
I agree, however, with the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough that some reference should be made in the framework of primary legislation to voluntary organisations. She has produced some good amendments in an attempt to achieve that. Rather than making all voluntary organisations statutory responders, she would amend clause 2(5) so that the regulations imposed on the statutory bodies—the local authorities—included a requirement that local "humanitarian or voluntary organisations" be involved. That is a wholly appropriate way of tackling the problem, which overcomes the Government's
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objections to making all voluntary sector organisations potentially subject to statutory duty. The statutory duty to consult would be placed on the local authority, and could be exercised in a common-sense manner. The hon. Lady has found an appropriate way of framing the provision. When the Minister responds, she might say that the regulations could, in any case, require local authorities to consult local voluntary and humanitarian organisations. That may well be the Government's intention, but it would be that much stronger if it were built into the Bill.
I understand the concerns of organisations such as the Red Cross, St. John Ambulance and the Salvation Army, which provide core services. The voluntary sector now provides essential services in many areas. Bodies such as the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children provides core child protection services in my city of Sheffield. If such organisations are in negotiation with local authorities for planning purposes, they will want to have some statutory authority and strength. It would therefore be appropriate to amend the Bill, as the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough suggests.
We debated clause 4 in Committee; I am not at all persuaded that it will deliver anything positive in the context of the Bill. It deals with the provision of advice and assistance to business, and the amendments are designed to extend that to include "humanitarian or voluntary organisations". If the provisions in clause 4 are to be in the Bill, the amendments are appropriate, given that many of those organisations will be providing mainstream services. If the local authority is to provide continuity, planning and advice to anyone, it should provide that to the bodies that are likely to be assisting during a period of crisis or emergency.
My major concern about the business side of clause 4 is that it is hard to see how, if it were on a cost-recovery basis, anyone would be likely to sign up to it.
I find it difficult to envisage how it will work from a business point of view. The amendments suggest that humanitarian organisations should not be charged for the advice.
I hope that the Minister can offer us more than we have had heretofore about the requirements that central Government will place on local authorities to engage with voluntary sector and humanitarian organisations. The Bill could be strengthened in that area.
5.45 pm
Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): I strongly support my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) on these excellent amendments, which address a very important and, indeed, rather grave subject. I also support what the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Helen Jackson) said in such an articulate fashion.
New clause 1 concerns the central issue of setting up a new civilian reserve, while most of the associated amendments concern making better use of our splendid voluntary organisations, such as the British Red Cross, the WRVS and others that have written to us to say that they feel rather left out of the planning process in the Bill. We are blessed with a very strong voluntary sector.
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As well as the organisations that I have mentioned, let us not forget St. John Ambulance and neighbourhood watch schemes. I was the co-ordinator of one of the first such schemes, and we successfully reduced crime. What a good point of contact they are for disseminating these plans.
As my hon. Friend said so effectively, we simply do not have enough manpower so we have to rely on the wider community. That reliance must be based on structures that are in place and properly rehearsed before the event, and not on ad hockery.
We saw with the unhappy incident in the Chamber last Wednesday that we as MPs had not been briefed on or rehearsed the steps that we should take. Had it been a biological attack, we should all have stayed in the Chamber until we had been decontaminated. Had it been a chemical attack, we should all have got out very quickly. Who distinguishes, and how the message is relayed quickly, are matters that present serious problems for the House authorities. Those problems need to tackled in advance. There may have been a great deal of planning behind the scenes, but at the level where it matters—the point on the ground where the incident occurred—the message had not got home, and, above all, the steps had not been rehearsed.
It is difficult to exaggerate the thinness of the official structures that we have in place for civil contingencies. My hon. Friend gave the touching example of the Territorial soldier, nominally a member of the civil contingency reaction force, who was killed on duty in Afghanistan—illustrating how overstretched that structure is. It is not only overstretched but completely inadequately structured. I have twice challenged Defence Ministers—I challenge the Minister again today—to explain how the 14 organisations can organise anything, when they are based on the headquarters of the 14 TA infantry battalions, which were stripped to an absolute skeleton in the most recent defence review. Although intelligence officers have finally been put back into them, there is still no intelligence cell to handle incoming information, the signals set-up is tiny and the whole structure is too woefully small to command anything. Those concerns were raised by TA officers who are very anxious to do this job and do it well.
Mr. Heald: Is my hon. Friend aware that it is thought that, of the civil contingency reaction force of 6,000, about half—or certainly between a third and a half—are overseas?
Mr. Brazier: I cannot entirely endorse my hon. Friend's figures, but a significant number are overseas and the organisation is anyway well below strength. I support the concept, but the organisation is far too small and under-resourced. The essence of having a surge capability to deal with an emergency is the ability to expand provision. If most of the people who form part of that surge capability are being used abroad, there is little surge capability available. The proposal for a new civilian force as a supplement would go a long way towards bridging the gap.
The ideas behind the other amendments in the group for a much closer relationship with all the vital voluntary organisations are also essential. The role
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played by the Red Cross in Madrid has been mentioned, but the point is that exercises are needed. I know of one small voluntary organisation that already does some of the work necessary. I have not spoken about it in the House before, as far as I remember, although my wife is a serving member. It is the First Aid Nursing Yeomanry, whose colonel-in-chief is the Princess Royal.
The organisation is only 100-strong, so its ability to make a difference is limited, although it punches well above its weight. It had a gallant record in both world wars and members were covered in decorations, but its role for more than a generation has been to support the City of London police force. For three days after the Moorgate tube disaster, it manned all the communications for the hospitals treating the injured. It was called out during the great storm of 1987 and, for the subsequent IRA bombing in the City, it again manned the communications so that relatives could find out where their loved ones had been taken. It is a small organisation that does an excellent job, and it is worth mentioning in this debate.
The truth is that we need all the voluntary organisations. They deserve silver-tongued praise in this House, but they should also be part of the planning for the frightful emergencies that may happen at any time. Colleagues would be surprised if I did not mention that I still hope to persuade the Government to support my Promotion of Volunteering Bill. I already have 150 signatures to my early-day motion from Members from all parties, broadly pro rata to their representation in the House. Surely a debate such as this should convince us that it is wrong that volunteers who sign up to organisations that may already do exercises on these potential dangers should face the same risk of negligence suits in the civil courts as, for example, a commercial company would.
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