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Richard Younger-Ross: We debated this issue briefly in Committee. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that most female changing rooms are already divided into cubicles? My background is in architecture, and I cannot think of an instance in all my time in architecture where we have ever built open changing rooms.

Andrew Selous: The hon. Gentleman is quite right. The public swimming pools that most of us use and where I go to with my family almost entirely have changing rooms with cubicles. That is not a problem. If
 
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he reads new clause 6 carefully, he will see the word "open" before the words "showers" and "sports changing areas." He will be aware that hotel sports areas often have open changing areas; football clubs and many other sports clubs have open changing areas; and open showers are very common in the armed services.

The difficulty arises purely in a case where someone is legally a man but has the body of a woman, or vice versa. It may be a small and far-fetched case, but we are entitled to know what would happen for the sake of good order and for another reason as well: the purpose of the Bill is to give transsexual people some rights that are overdue and should rightly be given to them. If the Minister does not deal with the issue that I am raising, there will be resentment and a public backlash that will undo the very work that he is trying to do. He has said time and again that we cannot legislate for other people's concerns on these matters. I am not entirely sure that that is right. It is the function of a Parliament that is considering such matters in the round to ensure that there are reserve powers—I emphasise the word "reserve"—so that public resentment does not build up and undermine the support for the very group that the Bill seeks to help.

Lynne Jones: Does the hon. Gentleman seriously think that a trans-man who has not undergone phalloplasty would go into a male changing room, for example, with a football team and expose himself? That is highly unlikely. I can confirm that there are open women's changing rooms. I went into one just over the road this morning. Quite frankly, the idea that a male-to-female trans-person would be granted a recognition certificate if they did not undergo a penectomy is, again, unthinkable.

Andrew Selous: If the hon. Lady is fair, she will acknowledge that I said that, hopefully, the circumstances to which my new clause relates would never arise. However, we would be negligent in our duty as legislators if we did not get some guidance from the Minister on what would happen if they did. Perhaps the hon. Lady is not aware that, in the south Wales case, Diane Parry had a full beard at the time when he wanted to join in the ladies' activities. Thus the scenario that I am describing is not wholly far-fetched.

Lynne Jones: To be candid, if the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that someone who sports a full beard would have their application for a gender recognition certificate granted, I wonder what world he is living in.

Andrew Selous: The hon. Lady attacks me for raising the issue, but on several occasions over the years the House has not foreseen potential developments. I fully accept that the vast majority of transsexual people will not want to go down that route, but there is always the litigious minority to deal with. I am keen to avoid public resentment and concern.

Mr. Lammy: The hon. Gentleman keeps talking about a litigious minority. I remind him that there are more than 60 million people in this country and only about 5,000 transsexuals, and the Bill contains a number
 
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of hurdles. For example, the person concerned must have had gender dysphoria, and as my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Lynne Jones) explained, persons with that condition do not want to be exposed in public in that way. Surely, therefore, the hon. Gentleman's preoccupation with the minority becomes redundant. Has he not argued himself out of the position from which he started?

Andrew Selous: No, I do not think that I have. Who would have thought that the Churches would be dragged through the courts by people from a very small minority of 5,000 people in a country of 60 million? Yet that has already happened, and other legal cases are in the system. I want the Minister to take the matter seriously. What will happen to a sports club in the scenario that I have described? Is there any protection in the Bill?

Mr. Lammy: Let me begin with the remark made by the hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell). The International Olympic Committee announced on Monday last week its policy on the participation of transsexual sportspeople. The policy will apply in the forthcoming Olympic games in Athens. In brief, it allows transsexual sportspeople to compete in their acquired gender, but only if they have legal recognition in the acquired gender and have undergone surgical and hormonal treatment such as to minimise any gender-related advantage. The hon. Gentleman said that we have been waiting a little while for that announcement, but he will understand that, as a consequence of it, new clause 3 is not necessary—although I am grateful for the manner in which he proposed it, as if to move things along. Indeed, the new clause acknowledges that any policy announced by the IOC should supersede any suggestion that it contains.

The Government agree that it is for the IOC to decide the terms on which transsexual sportspeople may compete in the Olympic games. Clause 19 provides UK sporting bodies, including the British Olympic Association, with the scope to restrict the participation of transsexual sports people where that is necessary to maintain competitive parity or for the safety of other competitors. The IOC has been guided by similar considerations, and we believe that the clause provides UK sporting bodies with sufficient scope to use the IOC guidelines.

Mr. Boswell: I am grateful to the Minister for updating me. I cannot claim responsibility for single-handedly getting the IOC to get its act together, but could he or the Under-Secretary confirm whether there is any possibility, given that transgender people, in addition to the remedial medication to which he referred, typically have to continue with other medication indefinitely, will fall foul of anti-doping codes? Will medication that they are required to take, whether medically or legally, lead to such problems?

Mr. Lammy: The IOC prescribes a two-year period for hormonal treatment and so on. The hon. Gentleman has asked an important question to which I do not have an answer off the top of my head, but I shall be happy to deal with it later.
 
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Although the IOC acknowledges that hormonal and other treatments used by transsexual people typically eliminate any competitive advantage that male-to-female transsexual people may have over other women, there may be cases where competitive parity or the safety of other competitors are valid concerns, and the IOC recognises that, as does clause 19. We shall issue guidance to sporting bodies in advance of the implementation of the Bill setting out the legal position and the scope that remains, quite properly, for sporting bodies to make decisions that reflect the needs of their particular sport.

Lynne Jones: I am interested that my hon. Friend said that safety grounds might prevent a trans-competitor from competing. Sports bodies already have the power to exclude someone if safety is a factor, and in Committee I queried the need for clause 19. I am pleased to learn that the IOC has made it clear in its ruling that claims, pursued in the House of Lords, that the Bill

"has put the entire future of competitive sport in jeopardy"

are entirely bogus. The IOC's sensible proposal negates the need for clause 19.

Mr. Lammy: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for putting her views on the record. There were arguments circulating in another place that were deeply unhelpful, but clause 19 makes the position clear. My hon. Friend will accept that there are many sports in which these issues simply do not arise, but there are other contact sports such as rugby and basketball where safety considerations might be pertinent. By definition, the individuals playing those sports come into contact with others, so although the parity test remains, the safety requirement needs to be taken into consideration as well.

In an intervention, I made clear the Government's position on new clause 6, which raises an issue that, even though we had only three minutes to deal with it in Committee, was, I believe, dealt with satisfactorily. Its implication is, unfortunately, that transsexual people are more likely to expose themselves or seek to cause offence than other people who use communal changing or washing facilities.

Richard Younger-Ross: Is not the logic of the new clause on changing facilities that there should be separate changing cubicles in shops, not communal changing areas? Equally, changing rooms at swimming pools would have to have a door saying "Transgender person".

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