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Mr. Blunkett: We believe that they do. Although, when making a charge of homicide, one obviously wants a conviction of murder, it is reasonable to prove that the individual committed a lesser offence if the murder charge clearly will not stick.
A second Lords amendment related to condoning murder in circumstances in which the person condoning may have believed that they were at risk. That is a delicate matter, but, in Committee, we want to explore restoring the procedures that are crucial to ensuring that people could not use such risk as an excuse. As with domestic violence, we want people to escape rather than remain in circumstances whereby a child is put to death and someone is compliant with it through remaining in the situation and being afraid.
Mr. John Bercow (Buckingham) (Con):
I suspect that my question will be easier to answer, but no less relevant than that of my hon. Friend the Member for South-West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous). I welcome the proposed equality of treatment between married and cohabiting couples on the simple principle that the issue at stake is the protection of vulnerable individuals. Will the Home Secretary enlighten me about the significance of the reference in clause 4 to relationships of non-cohabiting couples being "of significant duration"? I hope that that will not prove to be an exacting criterion or threshold. It would appear to undermine the important principle that the measure has embraced.
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Mr. Blunkett: It is designed to show that there is a stable relationship and therefore comes within the scope of the Bill, given its concentration on domestic violence, rather than other forms of abuse, which other aspects of the law tackle.
Let me be helpful to hon. Members. One of the advantages of being in government rather than in opposition is that one receives messages on occasions such as this afternoon's debate. I have received a message, not through some hidden earpiece, but when I gave way my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary received a message, which he communicated to me. The Bill covers all members of a household who are over 16, including brothers and sisters.
Mr. Bercow: Instant gratification.
Mr. Blunkett: No, I am in favour not of hedonism and instant gratification of any sort but of considered messages, whose suitability to convey I can weigh up.
Mr. Dawson: I believe that the only under-16s in a household who would be caught by the Bill are children who are also parents of a child who dies. Is my right hon. Friend entirely comfortable that the concept of parental responsibility in relation to those children is sufficient to warrant their being brought into serious criminal proceedings?
Mr. Blunkett: We are dealing with culpability. There is already an understanding of the responsibility that those of different ages bear and the legal system allows us to tackle that. In other words, a conviction is sought. The punishment, and how those individuals are dealt with, are then commensurate with and balanced by their age. That is how we seek to deal with such circumstances, for which we have different forms of penalty and approach, including through the youth courts. We can deal with that in a sensitive and sensible way.
Mr. Grieve : The hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre (Mr. Dawson) raises an important point, which we can look at more closely in Committee. The offence referred to is one of negligence, or at least offers the opportunity of a conviction on the basis of negligence. The age selected for the start of culpability is 16. Is that too low or too high? I should be interested if the Home Secretary wanted to amplify why 16 was selected, as opposed to 18, for example.
Mr. Blunkett:
In the sex offences legislation that we introduced we established a pattern determined by an individual's age, and 16 was seen as a significant and appropriate age in that legislation—which was debated and agreed in the House with much unanimity. We are applying similar tests in relation to this legislation. I should be happy, however, for that to be debated, examined and tested in Committee, and my hon. Friend
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the Under-Secretary will, in his usual fashion, ensure that common sense prevails if people have doubts and concerns about the matter. We should bear it in mind—I refer back to the question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Wyre—that in circumstances where parents are under 16, it is presumed that they are in a household with adults over 16 who supervise and support them. Therefore, on this specific aspect of familial homicide, there will be others in the household who also stand responsibility and duty.
Clauses 12 to 16 bring in powers that were pressed for by Members from all sections of the House during the passage of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, but which we were not able to deal with then because we had not received the appropriate advice from the Law Commission and others on multiple offending and how to deal with it. I am glad that we have been able to use this Bill to introduce those powers. We promised that we would do so at the time—last November, I seem to remember—and we are able to fulfil that pledge now. There is an issue about vulnerable adults and whether there will have to be two juries rather than one, but that can be dealt with in Committee. I do not intend to hold up the House with that today, because many hon. Members want to speak. Clauses 17 and 18 make technical changes, which do not need to hold us up today.
That brings us to part 3—clauses 21 to 33—which is the element of the Bill that deals with victim support. It includes the code of practice that we are putting on a statutory footing, the independent commissioner who will champion victims, the victims advisory panel, which will be made statutory, and various stages of amendments, to which I have already referred substantially, that will build up the victims fund. There is also an issue in part 3 about giving the victims of mentally disordered offenders the same rights as victims of other violent offences. That will be widely welcomed outside the House. I pay tribute to the Zito trust for its work on that and many other aspects of a difficult field of policy. I know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health will press separately on that matter through the draft mental health Bill and the consultation on it.
Mrs. Gillan : On a point of information, will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that he is planning to reinstate the old clause 18 from the original Bill?
Mr. Blunkett: It is our intention to reintroduce the principle. If, in negotiations with Opposition parties, minor changes are proposed to what was clause 18, which we can take on board, we will be happy to do so. We want to ensure that we get our intended objective, rather than merely getting the words that we first thought of—if that makes sense.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (UUP) rose—
Mr. Blunkett:
I thought that the hon. Lady might want to intervene.
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Lady Hermon: Will the Home Secretary take a moment to explain what justification there is for the creation of two tiers of victims in the United Kingdom? Those in England and Wales will have recourse to the new victims commissioner, unlike those in Northern Ireland—although we have a substantial number of victims for a variety of serious reasons.
Mr. Blunkett: The hon. Lady is assiduous in ensuring that our attention is drawn to the different legislation applying to Northern Ireland. I was about to say that measures relating to victims of mentally disordered offenders applied to Northern Ireland, but the hon. Lady is right to say that there are different provisions in other parts of the Bill. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary will be happy to meet her, and will also meet the commissioner, to establish whether coterminosity can enable victims in the United Kingdom to be treated on a similar basis.
This is genuinely one of those occasions on which we have the good will of everyone and can make a difference by using the parliamentary process. Because there is consensus on the issue and because we are seeking to implement common sense, it is inevitable that we shall not receive much publicity. People will not learn about this side of politics—about those who work together day after day in Committee, behind the scenes, changing law and making a difference to lives. I appeal to those in the Press Gallery to help us shed a bit of light—[Laughter.] I appeal to both of them to help us shed a bit of light on how democracy can work in the best interests of our people, how we can bring about a just and fair society, and how we can change the culture to one of respect and responsibility.
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