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Sandra Gidley (Romsey) (LD): Does my hon. Friend not think that we as politicians also have a responsibility? Does he share my sense of more than slight dismay that the Home Secretary himself earlier used phraseology such as giving somebody a kicking? I know that that was said in another context, but this is not a subject for jest. Should we not be careful about the language that we use in this place?

Mr. Heath: We all need to be very careful about the language that we use in any circumstances. I do not want to overplay this point, but I believe that we have to make things clear to young people in particular. Surveys have shown that there is an alarming degree of acceptance among young people that domestic violence is somehow okay. We have to counter that through education and exemplary behaviour.

There is an element by which domestic violence is hereditary. I do not mean in terms of a congenital disposition—I do not believe that for a moment—but in terms of learned behaviour. People who are brought up in households in which there is an abusive relationship are more likely to believe that such behaviour is acceptable.

Mr. Dawson: I make the same point that I made to the Home Secretary. How on earth can we send positive messages to young people when it is perfectly permissible under the law for people to assault them?

Mr. Heath: The hon. Gentleman makes his point, and makes it frequently. It is a matter that will be debated in the context of other legislation, and I do not want to confuse two pieces of legislation.

If there is a problem with the public culture, there are also issues with police culture. I accept the fact that the police have improved no end on this issue, but their response is still patchy. The problem is often not the lack of power available to police officers but their willingness
 
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to use the powers that are already available. They may believe that they are acting in the best public interest, but they need better training so that they know how they should respond to a given situation.

There are also problems with the legal culture, and that point was admirably made by the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green in her remarks on the legal profession. Sadly, there is a lingering culture in our courts and legal system that makes it more difficult than it need be for someone to lay a complaint, have it properly investigated and resolved through judicial process. We need a legal culture that sustains and supports the victim far better than the one we have at the moment.

The culture of the victims themselves is also a problem. In a way, it is nonsense to talk about a victims' culture, but there is a feeling among many victims that they do not have the capacity to get themselves out of the situation in which they find themselves. We must find ways, either through the agencies with which we engage or the legislation that we introduce, to reach out to those people and tell them that there is a way in which they can get themselves out of their relationships and that the law and society will support and help them in the future.

Dr. Jenny Tonge (Richmond Park) (LD): My hon. Friend has spoken at length about different cultures and criticised them for allowing things to happen or turning a blind eye, but in supporting what the hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre (Mr. Dawson) said, surely we must also attack the culture that makes it permissible to smack or beat young children in a family setting.

Mr. Heath: Again, my hon. Friend tries to lure me into a different debate, but I want to maintain my position and talk about the Bill.

I fear that the Government have vastly oversold the Bill. I am not saying that it will not be valuable, but it will not do many of the things that people outside the House—and perhaps even hon. Members—expect after hearing the messages that the Home Secretary and his colleagues put out. They might feel that it will achieve more than it will.

Many practitioners think that criminalising the breach of non-molestation orders will not provide an adequate material solution to the situation that exists. The Home Secretary knows that there are real worries about how civil and criminal court processes will interact. Assurances were given in the other place that it would not be a problem to use the civil court process, even if the criminal court process existed. I hope that that will be the case; it is something that we shall have to tease out of the Under-Secretary in Committee.

I hugely welcome the provision that will extend existing legislation to same-sex couples, although I wonder how that proposal to promote equality will interconnect with the Civil Partnership Bill. We need a clear understanding of the definitions used and the way in which they will work.

I think that every hon. Member will welcome the proposal that common assault be an arrestable offence. Many of us warmly welcome the fact that the Government are addressing cases of familial homicide in which it is impossible to establish clearly which of two
 
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people may be responsible. The Law Commission's report was extraordinarily helpful and we also had a good Westminster Hall debate on the subject recently, which was secured by the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Dr. Turner). I am slightly worried that the Government have chosen some of the Law Commission's proposals and rejected others, but I nevertheless welcome the fact that they are prepared to address the issue. The Under-Secretary will know that domestic homicide reviews are much supported by the Metropolitan police as a valuable addition to the system, but that others have doubts about the value added by the proposal. We shall have to tease out from the Government whether there will be adequate resources to underpin the structures that will be needed to make the system work. We want a proper definition of domestic violence to be incorporated in the Bill, and although that argument has been heard in the other place, we will need to rehearse it.

We will examine the operation of occupation orders and the way in which they will work in practice. We want to know a little more about the central register of occupation or non-molestation orders that Baroness Scotland said would be established. How will that work, what will be its scope, how will it be resourced and how will it be accessed so that it can provide valuable support to law enforcement agencies? There are worries about the use of recovery orders, and I hope that they will be addressed later in the debate.

I repeat the point that has been made about access to public funds by victims of domestic violence who are subject to immigration controls. We have always said that we want something to be done about that, and I thought that the Home Secretary made a helpful suggestion when he said that he might try to find a non-statutory route to achieve the same objective that we want, so we shall listen carefully to what the Under-Secretary says about it in Committee. On criminal procedure, we must consider sample counts, although we are told that the Government intend to reverse the amendment that was made in the other place. They also intend to reverse the amendment passed in another place on unfitness to plead.

I hugely welcome the proposal for a commissioner for victims and witnesses. I hope that that individual will have the widest possible remit and a clear working relationship with children's commissioners. I hope that he or she will be able to deal effectively with the status of vulnerable witnesses. Many of our co-respondents have suggested that a proper advocacy service should be placed within the context of the commissioner for victims and witnesses, which I support. The one thing that would make a huge difference to people would be a properly resourced advocacy service, and the commissioner could provide a useful focal point for it.

Lady Hermon: The hon. Gentleman rightly referred to the widest possible remit for the victims commissioner, so may I rely on his support and that of his colleagues in Committee to ensure that that remit is extended through the code of practice for victims, given that the Northern Ireland Office is currently resisting the
 
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proposal? Will he assure me that he will support extending the remit of the victims commissioner to Northern Ireland?

Mr. Heath: The hon. Lady knows from experience in Committee that I often support her proposals, and I know of no contrary arguments to her suggestions at the moment. I thought that the Home Secretary gave a guarded, yet positive, response to her earlier intervention, so we shall have to find out what happens in Committee.

Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen, South) (Lab): Does the hon. Gentleman agree that consideration should be given to whether the victims commissioner and any body subsequently set up should be able to reflect the views of disabled women who are subjected to domestic violence? I hope to catch your eye later, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to make that point because disabled women have specific needs and I am worried that they might not have been considered during previous discussions on the Bill.

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