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Mr. Peter Kilfoyle (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): I have looked across the Chamber during today's debate with a mixture of trepidation and déjà vu, because many of the hon. Members who set out to destroy any Government initiative when the roles were reversed and we formed Her Majesty's loyal Opposition during the long years of the Major political night seem to be hellbent on doing so again today. They are fixated on aspects of the European Union that are, to many people, at best academic and, to others, certainly resolvable. It seems as though their antagonism to Europe is both visceral and immutable—time does not heal it in any sense.
In fact, I take a very different view on Europe. I, too, like the Opposition, am critical of Her Majesty's Government, but from a different perspective: I do not think that the Government are enthusiastic enough. I own up to being one of that band—admittedly, a minority—who look forward to the benefits of a deepening in the European commitment and European ties.
Those who go to constituencies such as mine, particularly to the schools, recognise that a massive change is already taking place. The fact is, whether because of the increased prosperity that we have all enjoyed for a number of years or the wider opportunities to taste what at one time, certainly in my childhood, were rather exotic things, our younger generation are far more inured to a European dimension than we ever were. There is a danger in a place such as this that we are all seen as being tied into a middle-aged perspective, coloured by our own experiences and generational undertakings.
When I visited one school, I was mystified to hear all the different languages being used around the place. Unbeknown to me, it was a European day at the school. The school was in a deprived area and performing poorly at that time, but everyone there had managed to key into the European dimension. The pupils had made lots of European dishes. They had learned basic phrases in a range of languages. Of course, when I talked to the kids themselves, I learned that many of them went on holidays abroad, although that was not particularly common. They had no fear of Europe, which seems to be at the heart of many of our debates on European affairs. Even if only with a simple thing such as football, they understand that we can learn from the European dimension.
Indeed, when we complain so bitterly about Europe—it is as though we have to put up with matters European—I often ask myself why the Europeans put up with us, when the only things that we seem to give to Europe are football hooligans and carping critics of everything that Europe comes up with. Obviously, we have to be a little more circumspect in the House during debates on what Europe means to us, but I think that a deeper, more involved and more committed Europe is very much in our national interest.
My right hon. and hon. Friends who sit on the Front Bench will not agree when I say that, if we had had that deeper involvement, that greater integration with Europe, I doubt very much whether we would have embarked on the folly of the Iraq war. I do not expect Conservative Members to agree with me; they were
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more in tune with the Government on that issue. Indeed, they were more gung-ho about that adventure than even the Government. Nevertheless, a more integrated, responsive, interconnected and focused view in Europe might have acted as a brake on such a matter.
I tend to think, too, that greater involvement in Europe would help us in many other ways in our national interest. For example, we all know that the Murdoch press rants, raves and rails against Europe, presumably because that is in its interests. I should like to think that greater co-ordination and, indeed, greater regulation—yes, that dreaded phrase—across Europe would stop some of the blackmail that takes place and leads, with regular monotony, Leaders of the Opposition, admittedly including the Prime Minister when he was Leader of Opposition, to bow the knee in front of Murdoch to be elected in our own country. I would like to think that it would be an exercise in democracy if we regulated at the European level against such a pernicious influence on the political process.
There are further simple measures from which we profit that show that it is beneficial to the national interest to be deeply involved in Europe. I listened carefully, albeit with some dismay, to my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Denzil Davies). I admire him greatly and he made a good and cogent case on certain points. He asked key questions, but he approached the debate from a negative perspective. I could say that he ranted about some points, but that would be an inappropriate word to use in his case. He spoke about the democratic deficit and the burden of regulation and bureaucracy. He told us how initiatives come from bureaucrats rather than elected people. However, he did not say that presumably the way to tackle the democratic deficit is to intensify the democratisation of the European institutions rather than backing off and ignoring the good things. If he were in the Chamber now, I would be happy to point out to him what happened in my city as a result of the bureaucratic approach.
Commissioner Bruce Millan, aided and abetted by Graham Meadows of European Commission Directorate-General XVI, enabled objective 1 money to be allocated to England, against the wishes of the then Conservative Government. We benefited from that money enormously, and it has now been spread throughout Wales, and in South Yorkshire and Cornwall. We can argue all we like about the esoteric nature of that funding and about how it is a rebate of our contributions. That is true, but the positive initiative to focus the money on areas of greatest need came from the European Commission.
Much has been said about the elections, and the right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) spoke at length about last Sunday's result. Let me tell him and other hon. Members what happens when one takes a positive and proactive view of the benefits that accrue from the so-called bureaucratic approach in Europe. In my home town of Liverpool, we actively promoted the benefits that had come to the city. The Labour party received four times as many votes as the Conservative party in the European elections. It received twice as many votes as the Conservative and United Kingdom Independence parties put together. If the Labour vote
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was combined with the Lib-Dem vote, people voted for a positive view of Europe by the factor of 7:1. Hon. Members might say that that is perfectly reasonable because Liverpool has benefited from structural funding, but so have many other parts of the country. We should be proud of that, praise it and try to augment it in any way we can.
Before the Jeremiahs start talking about the local elections, I can tell them that there was a huge difference between the votes. People stopped to think about how they voted in the elections. There was no doubt that the winners of the local elections in Liverpool were the Liberal Democrats, but there was a clear distinction between that election and the European vote. People were sensible and acted according to what was in their interests.
We must consider not only our national interest. We are our brother's keeper in a globalised world that is ever more fraught with dangers from hitherto unknown sources. What we have in Europe represents the culmination of the vision of the early Community on how to secure peace in Europe. I do not say that the situation is perfect or that there will not be more problems along the way. For example, we seemed to go slightly amiss with the dismemberment of Yugoslavia. Nevertheless, despite the European Union's problems, history will well regard its effect on Europe as a continent, especially on major conflicts.
We cannot glibly pass that dimension by. We are too often accused of being little Englanders lost on the peripheries of Europe—well, we are. But if we really want to be at the heart of Europe, politically as well as economically, we need to change our attitude towards it.
I was not quite clear what the right hon. Member for Wells was saying, and I raised a point of information. He explained to me that he was arguing that the problems with Europe encourage extremism—that is a very general summation of what he said. I put it to him and to others that there are those who are using Europe to encourage extremism. It is not a one-way flow. The right hon. Gentleman used the example of Europe-wide problems with asylum and immigration policy encouraging the growth of extremism, but I am sure that he will agree that there are people who are deliberately distorting the images of Europe to foment an extremist prejudice in our country. That is to be deplored, I hope by everybody.
I want to take up another point that has had some currency in this debate. It is always being said that this House is losing powers to Europe. For people at the bottom of the pile in this country what happens in this House does not matter a fig. Whether we like it or not, much of the reason that people are not turning out to vote is the fact that they do not see the House as the ultimate repository of democracy. They see it as a talking shop and a fig leaf for whoever is the Government of the day. It does not seem to affect their lives directly. We can argue cleverly how in fact it does impact on every aspect of their lives, and any sensible person would know that, but the people out there do not necessarily know it. They do not make the fine distinctions that we make. That is not to say that we should make those distinctions. When we are trying to put across a message to the people we should not delude
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ourselves that they look to this House positively and constructively to lead in all things—they do not, and that is one of the problems that we need to address.
I have heard a lot about red lines. The only red line that really bothers me is the one between those who are antagonistic towards Europe and those who are enthused by it. That line crosses parties—I know that. I have heard colleagues today who, on this issue, could happily sit on the Opposition Benches. Europe is about vision as well as practicalities, and that vision is sadly lacking. I wish, and I mean this in the kindest way, that my Front-Bench colleagues would go out and enthusiastically promote the cause of Europe. I make an exception for certain of my hon. Friends, of course, but too many want to hide their light under a bushel.
It is true that the Conservatives have found a middle ground, but the problem is that it is between Euroscepticism and Europhobia. They are not in the middle ground of British politics; they are between a rock and a hard place. Most of what they have said in recent days and weeks shows that they have a political problem that is about their party, and not necessarily about the national interest.
4.8 pm
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