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Angus Robertson : I do not want to engage in a debate on the substance of what the hon. Lady is saying. Does she agree, however, that we should be concerned not just about the matters she is raising but about the fact that only a small proportion of members of all political parties in the House are even remotely interested in whether Europe works well, badly or indifferently? Should we not work in our parties to foster more interest, and to improve scrutiny across the political spectrum?
Mrs. Browning: We should all take these issues seriously. We all have quite a lot to say about red tape, the burdens on business and the consequences of European legislation. The fact is, however, that all of us who are here at the behest of the British electorate are impotent in respect of those things. I am happy to hear people debate reform, but that is not where we are today. We are at a watershed: all the matters that have been discussed in past years are coming together in the new constitutional treaty, which rolls together all the treaties that we have signed.
Many have described what they believe to be the changes and the dangers inherent in the constitution: the legal personality that it will have, and a range of issues connected with our common law, our foreign and defence policy and our social policy. All that is clearly spelt out in the treaty. The Government attempt to persuade us that their red lines will make the treaty as neutral as possible in terms of the House's power, on behalf of the people of this country, to make decisions; but that is not what it is about.
I regard the Minister as a Euro-enthusiast, yet he does not appear enthusiastic about this project. He and his colleagues still seem to be in denial, not really wanting to admit what the treaty is. I wonder why the Government have not the courage of their convictions. It would be more respectable to spell out what is in the treaty, and to say "We support this, because it is what we and the other European countries that want it believe is right for our country." If they genuinely believe that it is the right thing for this country, I will oppose them in the debate and the argument, but at least that debate will be honest and respectable.
The argument on peace cannot be maintained today. It may well have been correct for Konrad Adenauer and others in the previous century but I believe, as my right
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hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham clearly set out, that it was the presence of NATO and, specifically, of American soldiers funded by American taxpayers that kept the peace in Europe during the cold war, and we owe them a great debt for their support to NATO in that role, which they played for many years. They were there not to hold France and Germany apart but to protect mainland Europe from the clear threat of the Soviet Union and the old Soviet bloc, a nuclear power—something quite new after the last war.
I do not know why we accept the European Union's lack of good governance, or why as a country—I imagine that this applies as much to the Labour Government as it does to my Front Bench—we somehow seem to accept that fraud just happens. We accept the fact that accounts cannot be properly audited, when they involve spending the money of the taxpayers of this country, for which we, as representatives of the people, should be held to account. It should be incumbent on us as MPs to press for good governance in the European Union, yet the only people to identify the problems are vilified by the elite bureaucracy in Brussels. It is those whistleblowers, who are actually doing the British taxpayer a good service, who lose their jobs. Why is good governance not required in the European Union, although we insist on it in third world countries when we are considering passing money to them to help their pressing needs? Good governance is made an integral part of those negotiations.
I agree with what many of my colleagues have said on the European Union's economy and its role as a trading bloc in a global market. The European Union negotiates for the United Kingdom Government in global trade talks. Yes, Ministers attend the talks, but they do not have a seat on our behalf at the table. What sort of deals do they do on our behalf? They certainly do not protect British businesses, such as the cashmere industry and the decorative packaging industry, when the United States falls out with the European Union at those global talks. I ask again, as have others: where is this Government's negotiating hand? Throughout the years, if we have worried about how the European Union has developed and how it works in practice, we have been told, "Don't worry; we will use our influence and negotiating skills to sort these matters out." But they do not get sorted out.
The people of this country have woken up—some of them—to what is on the table, to where we are now in our relationship with the European Union and, more particularly, to where the European Union is going. I support the view that at this point, on the eve of the signing of this constitution, if those countries that want closer political and economic union want to proceed with the treaty, we should wish them Godspeed. Let us face it, we do not want to see them in dire straits as their economies crumble, but if they genuinely believe that that is the right thing to do, let them proceed. My right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the Conservative party has described that position as "Live and let live". It is certainly more understandable than variable geometry.
However, if that approach is adopted, our relationship with the EU will be different from now on. It is not about saying no to the constitution in principle or to joining the euro—although I do say no to both possibilities—but about looking at where we are now.
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Where the treaties that we have signed have not worked, we must make sure that we give back to the British people those things that they may not have realised until now that they have lost.
We must do that constructively; otherwise, we risk damaging ourselves and our allies. We want to work closely with our allies, and trade with them. They certainly want to trade with us. However, last Thursday's vote was an angry message to the two main parties in this country that the British people feel let down on Europe. It behoves Members of Parliament to be totally honest with them from now on, for that is what they deserve. If we are not honest, the consequences will be grave for all parties.
I represent a traditional shire county seat in the heart of God's own county of Devon. My constituents are very down to earth. They are lovely people, and it is a great pleasure to represent them. They are not fools, though: the good people of Devon will not tolerate any party that tries to pull the wool over their eyes.
The hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) has returned to his place. Earlier, he concluded his remarks with a literary quotation. I shall do the same. The quotation that I shall use will be familiar to the House, but it sums up how my constituents feel about this matter. G. K. Chesterton wrote:
"Smile at us, pay us, pass us; but do not quite forget.
For we are the people of England, that never have spoken yet."
6.7 pm
Mr. Richard Spring (West Suffolk) (Con): I want to thank all those who have contributed to this afternoon's debate, in which there were some excellent speeches. I seek your indulgence, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as I want to allude to various other aspects of the EU's activities before I deal with the substance of what has been discussed this afternoon.
Inevitably, the main thrust of today's debate stemmed from last week's elections and from the important events that will take place in the next few days. The whole House welcomes the enlargement process and the fact that new member countries were able to vote for the first time in the recent European elections, but I know that all hon. Members share one regret—that so far we have not found a solution to the division of Cyprus.
We were all saddened at the rejection of the Annan plan, but I hope that the Cyprus problem can be resolved sooner rather than later. Even so, a number of issues remain—especially among members of the Greek Cypriot community, which voted no—that require some sort of resolution before a settlement can be reached.
I want to touch on two matters very briefly. The first problem has to do with the Turkish settlers from mainland Turkey who now occupy land and property in northern Cyprus, and the second—and the more important, for many Greek Cypriots—is the permanent presence of Turkish troops in northern Cyprus.
Our country is a guarantor power, so the successful and peaceful reunification of Cyprus is an objective of considerable importance for us. We need to improve the poor economic circumstances faced by the Turkish Cypriot community, and the communications link. I hope very much that the Government, as a guarantor power, will use their good offices, and Britain's unique
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relationship with the Cypriot people, to resolve the tragic situation that obtains in that most beautiful island.
Also, we must take this opportunity to congratulate Turkey on what it has done to try to resolve the matter. It has moved towards the Copenhagen criteria for EU membership, which all hon. Members agree is a necessary objective. Turkey is also making considerable improvements in its human rights record, especially in respect of the Kurdish minority. Moreover, anti-torture legislation is being strengthened and there are moves towards establishing a more functional market economy. That is why, at this particularly difficult time in our relationships with the Islamic world, Turkey can act as a bridge to that world. As a country with extraordinarily good contacts both in the Arab world and, historically, with Israel, it can play a part in the middle east peace process, which has, unfortunately, ground to a halt.
The EU, as an enormous single market, has a huge impact on surrounding countries. The jewel in the crown of the EU is the single market, and we want to extend the benefits of trade and market liberalisation that we have enjoyed within it. The EuroMed agreements should be viewed in that light. The specific provisions vary in those association agreements, which currently exist with Algeria, Egypt, Tunisia, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco and the Palestinian Authority, but there are certain key common aspects, including building political dialogue, respecting human rights and making a real move towards economic liberalisation and market economies. We must continue with that, but a problem has arisen: we have an important objective now of combating the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, which raises a difficulty as regards those countries that may sign up to agreements and in dealing retrospectively with those countries that already have. In the context of the middle east, where we want economic improvement, it is important to resolve that problem in respect of Syria and the other countries prospectively coming through. Our relationships with the countries that border us, given economic circumstances, the high growth of population and so on, are important to our continued prosperity.
We have heard some excellent speeches this afternoon, and I first congratulate the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) on his. He talked about political élites wanting to forge a constitutional structure that he felt was unacceptable to people, and I think that he was entirely right. He talked about the problems of the common fisheries policy and the common agricultural policy. Those are massive problems and, as many hon. Members have said, the negotiations should have provided the Government with an opportunity to take a really tough line on resolving the question of fisheries, which has been so damaging to this country.
The right hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) talked about the need for some reorganisation of the treaties, saying that four were in existence and that they could be brought together. We accept that, of course, but the point is that there is a huge difference between establishing an overarching constitution and bringing together the essential elements of the treaties in an open and simplified way by adopting a charter of competences
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very much in the spirit of Laeken. There is something fundamentally different between that animal and this constitution, which has emerged in a hugely complicated way.
The right hon. Member for Llanelli (Denzil Davies) quite correctly said that no matter what happens, the Prime Minister will no doubt come back announcing a great triumph. I agree with him that there is a sense among our citizens that democracy is being eroded in the European Union. He talked about the difficulties of a lack of competitiveness in the European Union, the fact of permanent deflation being exported from China and India, the failure, thus far, of the Lisbon agenda, and the need to decentralise decision making among the economies of Europe rather than having an overarching macro-economic structure that does not seem to be delivering employment and prosperity.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) talked about the democratic deficit, and he was right to do so. The threat of democratic deficits is that if we do not bridge them, we will see the rise of extremism. He pointed out that it is vital for us, as politicians, to respond to what people say. The massive extensions of qualified majority voting proposed in the constitution would see the extension of involvement by the European Union in our criminal justice system, in asylum and immigration and in other matters. As he correctly pointed out, it is unbelievable that even before the constitution is agreed we are to have a European Foreign Ministry, with a diplomatic service, pre-empting any agreement or ratification. He also talked about the Government's failure to produce amendments that were accepted—some 90 per cent. were rejected. We were also assured that the charter of fundamental rights would not be legally binding, but—as we know from lawyers and the European Commission—that is what will happen.
It was a joy to hear again from the former Minister for Europe, the hon. Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz). As much as we all have great affection and regard for the hon. Gentleman, we also remember that what he told us would be in the Nice treaty before it was agreed was entirely different from what was eventually in it. He also said that the Nice treaty was of minimal importance, but we still carry the baggage that was associated with it. We warned at the time that the charter of fundamental rights would lead increasingly to the involvement of EU jurisprudence in our national life, and that is happening. As ever, I enjoyed listening to the hon. Gentleman, but his views have not been borne out in practice.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Atkinson) talked tellingly of the role of the Council of Europe, and reminded us that there would have been no enlargement without the work done by that organisation. I take this opportunity to salute my hon. Friend who, for many years, has worked so effectively in the Council of Europe. It will be a great loss to the House when he leaves us at the next general election. He pointed out the likely clash between the charter of fundamental rights and the European convention on human rights. What a beanfeast it will be for the lawyers.
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It is always a pleasure to hear from the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Kilfoyle). He talked about the need for greater integration in Europe, and I do not particularly agree with him about that. He also talked about the fact that the EU had been part of preserving peace on our continent, and—alongside NATO and the changing circumstances—that is true.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) talked about how the electorate voted, and he discussed the speech by the Foreign Secretary. My right hon. Friend also correctly pointed out that the renegotiation of the treaty base and the emergence of the constitution provided a real opportunity to create a different sort of European Union. If we had had the leadership that we should have had from the Government, we could have been in a radically different situation. As he said, it was the best opportunity for years to construct a modern, flexible and different Europe, but the Government failed to take it. As he said, so few of the amendments tabled by representatives of the Government were accepted.
The hon. Member for Luton, North (Mr. Hopkins) talked about citizens wanting a different sort of Europe. He said—and I agree—that it is up to member states to decide what welfare structures they should have: it is not a matter to be decided centrally. He was also correct about the need for interest rates to be different in various parts of Europe to ensure continuing prosperity.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell) talked about the need to support our continuing EU membership. Of course, we are absolutely committed to that, but he also pointed out that our continued membership will not be enhanced by our joining the EU constitution. Unfortunately, we see less and less economic flexibility in this new world. The real issue is how we create flexible structures to enable the European Union to survive and prosper in the years to come. My right hon. Friend, too, rejected the notion of the constitution.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry) also contributed to the debate. I need hardly repeat that we want to remain part of the European Union, but unless we are honest about what that means—and unless we reform it and bring it closer to the people of Europe—the desire for withdrawal will grow, in this country and in other parts of Europe. We want the EU to succeed; it has made considerable accomplishments over many decades but unfortunately, as I think my right hon. Friend, too, accepted, the constitution will not bring about the changes that would be desirable.
Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Mrs. Browning) talked about the Dominique Strauss-Kahn document, which illustrates the point that the constitution does not represent finality. Those who want to pursue political integration regard it merely as a stepping-stone to take the process further forward. My hon. Friend was right to say that successive Governments have not been honest with the British people as to what the European project is all about. We can agree or disagree about whether political integration is a good thing but there has certainly been a suspension of honesty, especially since the Government came into office.
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The events of the past week have shown the deep concern felt by the British people about the future direction of the EU and our place within it. The Government have idiotically spent the past year talking at the highest level in terms of "in" or "out", of whether to accept the ever-ratcheting process of integration and the constitution, or whatever is thrust on us, or to withdraw from the EU. It was a crass political error to put the case in those terms, because many people answered in a way that would be unacceptable to many, many Members of Parliament. It was a false choice and has served dangerously to polarise debate on the EU and has certainly exaggerated the instincts of those who might favour withdrawal. I am afraid that the Government have been responsible for the tide of rejection and disconnection that has grown in this country.
No one can believe that what has emerged in the constitution actually embraces the Laeken principles, which were simply to reconnect the European Union to its citizens. The constitution fails to recognise that when the diversity at the heart of Europe is coupled with non-coercive co-operation, the EU can flourish—when it is governed by a live-and-let-live, flexible approach. When the Dutch Foreign Minister, Bernard Bot, called on the EU to look for aspects of policy that could be returned to member states it was a welcome demonstration of the growing recognition, at least in some countries, of the real need for, and the practicality of, reform on the lines that we have indicated.
That approach is completely at odds with the implications of the proposed European constitution. In practice, the constitution will lead to further integration and much greater involvement of the European Court of Justice, as the Court itself has acknowledged.
We are not the only ones to take that view. On 29 May, The Economist stated:
"The Laeken Declaration of December 2001 that set up a constitutional convention promised that the distribution of power between the centre and the member countries would be re-examined from first principles. It raised the possibility that powers could flow in both directions: the EU might gain authority to act in some new areas, but other powers could be repatriated. The draft Constitution does not contain a single proposal for the EU to cede a policy area. The flow of powers is all towards Brussels."
It was a wise British politician who said that the British public would not be comfortable with our relationship with the EU until there was an institutional finality about it and creeping integration was halted, not by the completion of integrated political union, which the proposed constitution brings a step nearer, but by a clear commitment that we would integrate no further.
The Government finally accepted the weight of public opinion and the democratic imperative and conceded a referendum on an EU constitution. They must now heed the message sent by the British people last week when they voted for parties opposed to the EU constitution. The Government seem to pay little heed to the growing rejection of closer integration, but they do so at their peril, a point extremely well made by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram).
The Minister for Europe, in that capacity, signed up to a European socialist platform that calls for even greater harmonisation and European integration. I have a copy here: it is the most wonderful document—people would hardly believe it—and it goes absolutely against
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all the spin that we have heard from the Government. The reality is in that document, signed by the Minister for Europe.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton pointed out, the group set up by Romano Prodi talks about building a political Europe and sets out 50 proposals to enhance Europe's power and create a European sense of identity—including, for example, the first European taxes.
All this, frankly, is the product of a misplaced world view by the Labour party. In the cold war, it misunderstood the nature of the threat at the time and how to deal with it. Today, in an era when the blocs of old are irrelevant, the Labour party clings, like some others in Europe, to an outdated bloc mentality. Just as, when the Berlin wall came down, it embraced multilateralism, now that the blocs are obviously irrelevant it starts to embrace such ideas with enthusiasm. That is absolutely characteristic of a party that has failed to grasp contemporary geopolitical realities.
Indeed, it was just the same when President Reagan, whose memory we cherish, started to talk about taking on the old Soviet Union. All sorts of people said that that was utterly impossible and that no such thing was conceivable, but he, with the help of Margaret Thatcher and others, determinedly set about doing so. I say that because there is an echo of that sort of rubbishing, defeatist rhetoric from the Government—either accept the European project as it is, or withdraw—and I hope that, like President Reagan, we and the British people will have the last laugh.
I shall now refer to the Foreign Secretary's speech this afternoon. We have come to know the Foreign Secretary very well. Indeed, he is very generous to the House. He is always very polite, and he comes to the House to explain the situation. However, over the past few years we have learned that the more he disbelieves something, the more he rants. When he is sure of what he is saying and believes it, he is very calm and considered. This afternoon, we heard the most unbelievable rant that I have ever seen from the Foreign Secretary, who either does not believe in what he is saying or knows that there will be rather less than a triumph in the negotiations in the next few days. I am afraid that we heard the nonsense postulated that either we accept what is before us as important and necessary for our membership of the EU or we get out—the in-and-out postulation, which is precisely wrong. The difficulty is that the Government have consistently repeated that view.
The other problem with the Foreign Secretary is that, unlike his contemporaries in other parts of the EU, he has consistently come to the House to represent what has gone on in the Convention and what has been discussed at various meetings of his contemporaries and Prime Ministers as something entirely different from what individuals in his position in other parts of the EU are saying. That is why people in this country have suspended belief in what the Government have to say about the EU.
Rather than attempting to bind all nations in the EU into some sort of supranational structure, the interests of existing and future members of the EU are best served by tackling its structural, demographic and competitive
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problems, by attempting to do less, better and by building a partnership of nations that agrees because doing so is in their interests and because it will work. That is the way that success and realism lie. Indeed, that is exactly what the spirit of Laeken was all about.
All that will require leadership, focus and determination—characteristics that have been wholly absent from the Government's approach to the EU. None of the largest countries of Europe has pathetically exerted so little influence on the constitutional architecture that is before us as this country. Regrettably, that is the case with the United Kingdom under a Labour Government. History will most certainly judge them accordingly, as the people of Britain judged them so unequivocally last week.
6.39 pm
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