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Mr. Martyn Jones (Clwyd, South) (Lab): Following last year's effective consultation and pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill by the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, of which I am Chairman, the Welsh Grand Committee and Committees of the Welsh Assembly, several changes have been made, and it has been improved still further during its passage through the Lords. I should like to single out the following matters for the House's attention.

Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North) (Lab): As my hon. Friend says, the Bill has received an enormous amount of scrutiny, during which the Welsh Affairs Committee and the Committee in the Assembly interviewed the same people. Next week those two Committees will start a joint investigation—an historic event. Does he agree that that is partly a result of our experience on this Bill?

Mr. Jones: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I was going to mention that later, but she has pre-empted me.

The Welsh Affairs Committee welcomed the extension of the Auditor General for Wales's access rights to follow public money to end recipients such as contractors and grant recipients—that was in clause 11 at the time—and recommended that those extended rights should also apply to local government-appointed auditors. That was accepted, and what is now clause 18 was amended before the Bill was introduced. That is an example of how pre-legislative scrutiny is helpful. Following debate in the Lords, the Government extended those rights even further to require assistance from anyone who might have relevant information, as well as the production of documents. That is a good outcome. Public auditors in Wales will now have access rights among the best in the civilised world and fully in line with Lord Sharman's recommendations.

The draft Bill allowed the Audit Commission to continue to have access rights to Welsh local authorities for the purposes of producing cross-border reports on performance. We should remember that the Auditor General for Wales was not being given similar access to English local authorities. The Welsh Affairs Committee recommended that the Auditor General for Wales and the Audit Commission should co-operate on cross-border work and produce reports that were jointly badged so that both organisations could take their share of the credit.

Mr. Liddell-Grainger: The hon. Gentleman is making some interesting points. He hits the nail on the head in
 
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relation to access to documents by the Auditor General, which is covered by clause 11(3), but how does he see that unfolding in relation to, for example, cross-border investigations of subsidiary companies? There are cost implications, legal implications and, perhaps, European implications, but none of that is dealt with in the Bill.

Mr. Jones: I agree that, on the face of it, that is not in the Bill. However, the Government's proposals go some way towards meeting the concerns expressed in the Welsh Affairs Committee as regards such situations.

The Government did not accept the Committee's view, but they amended the Bill to require the Audit Commission to take account of the work of the Auditor General for Wales and to co-operate with him—or her, as may be the case in future. Following pressure in the House of Lords, the Government tabled new clauses requiring the Audit Commission, the Auditor General for Wales and the Commission for Healthcare Audit and Inspection to share relevant information. Although we are not entirely happy with that, it is a good halfway-house solution. I hope that the Government will consider that further.

Clause 54—formerly clause 50—prevents information obtained in the course of an audit from being disclosed except in certain circumstances. Our Committee backed suggestions that it should be deleted and replaced with agreed protocols about the clearance of draft reports. The Government did not accept that because they believed the clause to be identical to section 49 of the Audit Commission Act 1998, which will continue to apply in England. As that section contains offence provisions, the Government took the view, as the Minister confirmed again today, that it would be unacceptable to have aspects of criminal law that applied in England but not in Wales.

Following pressure by the Lords, the Government issued a ministerial statement saying that section 49 was under review as part of the review of statutory bars following the passing of the Freedom of Information Act 2000. They further stated that it is likely to be amended to create a presumption in favour of disclosure rather than against it, as at present. Clause 54 now contains an order-making power to allow the Secretary of State to amend it in line with any changes made to section 49 of the 1998 Act. I understand that, as the Minister repeated today, that will happen within the year. However, I still believe, as do my Committee, that Wales is being required to hang on to England's coat tails. That is a cause for concern.

More generally, part 2, which covers local government audit, replicates the Audit Commission Act 1998 in large measure, with the Auditor General for Wales being put into the commission's shoes. The Bill has its origin in a local government Act of the 1970s, the name of which escapes me, and could do with being brought into the 21st century. However, the Government do not wish to create different rules for local government in England and in Wales—that is a reasonable proposition—especially as such bodies are accountable to their electorates, not the Welsh Assembly.

Part 2 also contains offence provisions unlike the audit arrangements for the Assembly and its related public bodies. That contrasts with the audit of NHS
 
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bodies, which are accountable to the Assembly, and part 3 greatly simplifies the audit regime to suit Welsh circumstances.

Overall, the Bill is a good measure, which will create a Wales Audit Office. That is appropriate for the devolved environment in which we now have to work in Wales.

2.10 pm

Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): Good auditing tends to be invisible in that, when it is done correctly, the general public get the benefit but do not necessarily observe the process. In my time as a Member of Parliament, not one member of the public has lobbied me for the Bill. I can see that the Minister is barely able to contain his shock at that discovery but it is true. Nevertheless, a responsible Parliament must take the matter seriously.

The complex and sophisticated nature of modern auditing means that it is in order for us to try to ensure that we have a strategic and consistent approach across Wales. I therefore join others who give the Government credit for the extensive scrutiny that has taken place in the run-up to the debate. As we have heard, the Welsh Grand Committee debated the Bill last July, the National Assembly for Wales considered it in August, and the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs produced a report—we have just heard some of its findings—and the Assembly also published a report. That is an example of the way in which value can be added through detailed consideration on a cross-party and cross-body basis before the Government commit themselves to a Bill.

I am pleased that the Minister noted the benefit of consulting Opposition parties, including the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives, and I am glad that we assisted him. Indeed, if he would like to delegate any substantial part of his ministerial responsibilities, the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin)—I am sure that I can speak for him—and I would be willing to help him out on a daily basis on the assumption that we got a proportion of his salary.

Mr. Touhig: Modern apprenticeships.

Lembit Öpik: Indeed, it could be a good example of that. Perhaps we can discuss that after the business today.

The Minister outlined some of the key benefits of the Bill. They include a single audit body for Wales instead of two, making the public auditing process simpler and handling cross-border working coherently. That can lead to a practical improvement in cross-border relations, for example, in the health service. I have previously raised points about securing English health provision for Welsh patients. There has been some debate about issues that relate indirectly to auditing when I have discussed those matters with the Royal Shrewsbury hospital. If the cross-border working element of the Bill is effective, it could improve access to health provision for Welsh patients. Although the measure may, at first sight, appear theoretical and somewhat removed from the interests of the public, some of the aspects that the Minister highlighted will provide a practical benefit.
 
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An extensive debate was also held in another place, where amendments were tabled. I am obliged to pay tribute to my Liberal Democrat colleagues in another place, who, in their quiet and methodical way, ensured that best practice was derived from Conservative and other Members of the House of Lords.

Clause 54 probably occupied the greatest amount of time. It places restrictions on the disclosure of information obtained by the Auditor General or an appointed auditor about local government audits and studies, except in some specified circumstances. Other speakers have already given a definition and I therefore do not need to dwell on that. There was great concern that the clause provided for things for which no one was calling. I am optimistic about the Government's willingness to alter that, because they appear to have accepted the arguments. Perhaps I am simply an optimist or willing to trust the Minister because he has an honest face, but I believe that he will ensure that the issues that relate to clause 54 will be resolved before the end of 2004.

I have already quoted Lords Evans's words when he made an explicit commitment to resolve the section 49 element of the difficulties. The Minister went a little further today when he said that he would try to ensure that the consequential alterations that have to be made to clause 54 would happen by the end of the year. He can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that those two assurances mean that the Minister will deliver the desired outcome. In a sense, the question is not whether the Minister's words and those of the Lords are appropriate, but whether to trust the Government. I trust them on the matter and can envisage no reason why they would renege on something for which they have accepted the arguments.

I was intrigued by the observations of the hon. Member for Leominster about the importance of whistleblowing. I suppose that, after all these years, the Conservative view of whistleblowers has altered. Whistleblowers did not have a good time between 1979 and 1997. I chuckled quietly to myself when I heard the hon. Gentleman concerning himself about the sanctions that clause 54 might grant the Government, including imprisonment. Unless my memory deceives me, at least one whistleblower went to prison between 1979 and 1997 under a Conservative Government, explicitly for blowing a whistle on them.

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