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Mr. Liddell-Grainger: My hon. Friend is making interesting points. Perhaps I may help him. A major part of the draft Public Audit (Wales) Bill was devoted to the cost of setting the Welsh Assembly up but this Bill contains no actual breakdown of costings. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Minister must give costings in line with what the Welsh Affairs Committee asked for?

Mr. Swire: My hon. Friend makes a customarily good point, but I shall turn to costings in a minute, if I am able to in the limited time that I have left this afternoon.

The Minister spent much time telling the House how the Audit Office will scrutinise expenditure in Wales, but not much time telling us what the cost of the legislation will be. The Government have already admitted that their initial start-up costs were inaccurate, and the latest regulatory impact assessment has almost doubled that cost, from £500,000 to just under £1 million. It would therefore be helpful if the Minister could give us an up-to-date and, hopefully, final figure when he replies this afternoon.
 
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My right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight), who is no longer in his place, made a good point about the scrutiny of expenditure in Wales by the Public Accounts Committee. I hope that the Minister will seek to address that concern later this afternoon.

It would be quite wrong for me to continue in my comments without thanking those two excellent volunteers, my hon. Friends the Members for Blaby (Mr. Robathan) and for Bridgwater (Mr. Liddell-Grainger), who made contributions in their own way. My hon. Friend the Member for Blaby, who was quick to stress his Welsh antecedents, comes from a distinguished line of doctors and teachers from Llandaff and was more than happy to take the responsibility for being Welsh. He raised concerns about costs, and questioned whether a new building was needed, which, again, has not come out so far in the debate. He thought that well-thought-out and precise legislation was needed, and that we had a duty to ensure that money raised from our constituents was well spent. I think that most of us in the House would agree with those sentiments. Those are the prevailing sentiments with any kind of legislation, certainly among Opposition Members.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater, who takes the responsibility of being not a Welshman but a Scot in Somerset—perhaps an altogether more difficult position—made some probing interventions throughout the debate and, like all good Scots, concentrated on the financial aspects of the Bill. He made a series of points on the auditing of social landlords. Those good points were well made, and are worthy of a response from the Minister. He concluded by saying that he thought that although this was a good Bill, it needed tweaking. I look forward to joining him in the tweaking process in Committee later on this Session.

The Minister made many reassuring noises about clause 54 and about how clause 49 was to be amended in favour of disclosure. However, we are being asked to accept that those very necessary changes will be made after enactment—although in all fairness, by the end of 2004. My party believes that it is quite wrong and unnecessary to introduce new legislation without making those fundamental changes at this stage.

We are, it must be remembered, talking about large sums of money, and we have only to look to Brussels and the corruption in the European Union to see how whistleblowers have been treated in the past—and yes, regrettably, by a Welsh ex-Labour MP and party leader. That is in sharp contrast with the excellent record of the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, the hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig), who, ironically, succeeded the gentleman to whom I am alluding in that seat. The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) went off at a slight tangent about whistleblowers. I know that he plays in a band, so perhaps he should confine his blowing to his harmonica.

For once, however, the House is on the whole in considerable agreement on the Bill. We think that it has merit, and we look forward to the Committee stage, when we can introduce those amendments that will make the Bill even better, more workable and more relevant to the people of Wales. I look forward to the Minister's response, and hope very much that rather than repeating some of the points that he made in his
 
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very good introductory speech, he will seek to answer some of the excellent probing points made by Opposition Members this afternoon.

3.8 pm

Mr. Touhig: With the permission of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I shall reply to the debate. We have had an interesting and highly constructive debate on the Public Audit (Wales) Bill. Many good points have been made, and I can assure Members of all parties that the Government will consider those points carefully as we move towards Committee. The Bill's key objective is to create a simpler and more rational structure for public audit in Wales. That will break down operational boundaries and assist in the development and spread of best audit practice.

The Bill is based on the principle that public audit in Wales should be a simpler, more co-operative and more proactive process. It should reduce the burden of audit and inspection activity in Wales, without diminishing audit standards. That point was expressed by a number of bodies that responded to the public consultation on the Bill. For three years running, the Auditor General's annual report to the Assembly has shown that overall standards of financial management and probity are high. However, there can be no room for complacency and this Bill will ensure that we are able to build on that achievement. Through co-operation and consultation, the Bill will encourage a more strategic and inclusive approach to planning and carrying out audit, examination and inspection work. In addition, it will ensure that other bodies outside Wales can work with the Auditor General in developing areas such as audit standards and practice. That work has an increasingly international dimension.

The Auditor General and his staff have much to contribute. They have a wealth of expertise and experience, and it is fitting that they should play their full part. Some have said that this Bill is a patchwork of different provisions rather than a coherent whole. I disagree. Key people, such as the Auditor General for Wales and the director general of the Audit Commission in Wales, have wholeheartedly welcomed the Bill's proposals.

The very real benefits that this Bill will bring to the public audit process should not be lost in the wider debate. The Audit Commission in Wales, the Auditor General and the staff of the National Audit Office have done, and continue to do, excellent work in upholding and improving the high standards of public accountability that exist in Wales.

We have heard today about the pre-legislative scrutiny that the Bill has gone through. I pay tribute to the members of the Welsh Affairs Committee under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the member for Clwyd, South (Mr. Jones), and to those in the Welsh Assembly's Audit Committee who played a strenuous part in the consultation.

In my opening remarks, I took a number of interventions from Opposition Members, to which I shall now respond. The hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Liddell-Grainger) asked whether the Auditor General for Wales could appoint auditors for social landlords in Wales, and I want to amplify the response that I gave. The Auditor General for Wales has no
 
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power to appoint auditors to registered social landlords in Wales because such landlords are not public bodies, and not all receive their funding from the Assembly. However, he will be able to undertake value-for-money programmes in the registered social landlords sector, with the agreement of the National Assembly.

The hon. Member for Bridgwater also asked whether the publication of a report under clause 22 would breach the Human Rights Act 1998. The answer is no: local government bodies cannot be victims under the terms of that Act.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams) made an important and welcome contribution about the locus of the PAC in respect of the National Assembly. The PAC has a locus, in the sense that the Government of Wales Act 1998 provides that the Assembly's Audit Committee can, on behalf of the PAC, take evidence on audit issues, and report back to the PAC. That is covered by section 102(2) of the 1998 Act.

The hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin) welcomed the Bill. He said that it was a good piece of legislation, but that some opportunities had been missed. I am sure that we will explore that further in Committee. He was concerned that, although the Auditor General could audit the NHS, he could not do the same for local government. That is because local government enjoys a distinct democratic legitimacy that is bestowed by the electorate. Health bodies do not have that, as their members are not directly elected by the public. The Government are keen to ensure that local government retains its democratic independence. That is why we feel it right that the Auditor General should not be the auditor of local government, but that he should be able appoint those who will perform that function.

The hon. Gentleman asked about the details of the orders to amend clause 54. At this stage, I cannot go into detail about how those orders will be drafted, as discussions are continuing. As soon as I have some information, I shall make it available to the House. If it becomes available while the Bill is in Committee, I shall bring it to the attention of colleagues, as I think that people should know the Government's plans.

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