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Mr. Wiggin: I am grateful for the Minister's kind offer. However, the Committee sittings may start as soon as next week, so he has only a small window of opportunity in which to deliver that information.

Mr. Touhig: I accept that, but I merely want to make it clear to the House that I shall do all I can to get that information to colleagues. I recognise that I am asking for support for the Bill, and that that requires a degree of trust that the Government will introduce amendments later in the year.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned whistleblowers. He was worried that they might be deterred, but I do not believe that the Bill will cause that to happen. The Auditor General for Wales is the prescribed person for the purposes of the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998. My private Member's Bill that would have had the same effect was thwarted by the previous, Conservative
 
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Government. In fairness, I should say that the 1998 Act was introduced by a Conservative Member. It was supported by this Government and subsequently enacted.

Various hon. Members asked about the running costs of the Auditor General's office. The Auditor General can raise income through fees and charges. The gap between estimated income and expenditure is met by the National Assembly. I believe that, in 2003–04, that amounts to about £2.5 million.

In the Welsh Grand Committee, the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) raised the question of set-up costs, and various hon. Members asked the same question this afternoon. When we carried out the pre-legislative scrutiny, we gave a figure of £500,000 for set-up costs, but that was before a working group produced a detailed analysis. The new estimate is £987,000, but more than half the difference between that and the original estimate is accounted for by costs that were not anticipated originally. Non-recoverable value-added tax charges amount to £147,000, and £127,000 is accounted for in the appointment of a dedicated project manager. Originally, project management was to be done as an in-house exercise and funded by NAO and Audit Commission resources, but that is no longer the case. Finally, the Auditor General for Wales has estimated costs for information and communications technology at £350,000—over £150,000 more than originally anticipated.

The revised costs were considered and approved by the National Assembly's Audit Committee in May, and await approval by the Assembly's Finance Minister. I remind the House that, in evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee in June 2003, Sir John Bourn said that the original estimate of £500,000 was a "ball-park" figure that he did not consider irresponsible. However, the estimates have had to be revised, and it is right that colleagues should seek—and be given—information about the new costs forecasts.

My hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, South (Mr. Jones) welcomed the improved access rights to be given to the Auditor General, and I am sure that all hon. Members agree with that. I want to emphasise again the important work that the Welsh Affairs Committee performed in the pre-legislative scrutiny. That scrutiny process is now a matter of course for Welsh Bills, and the Committee plays a vital role in that. It will now begin consideration of the draft transport Bill for Wales, which we look forward to debating in the Welsh Grand Committee, perhaps next month.

The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) said that he had not been lobbied about an audit Bill by any of his constituents. I am not surprised at that, but I am sure that all hon. Members would agree that when something goes wrong with any public service issue and costs arise, we all turn to the auditors to find out why. He expressed concerns about clause 54 and asked what role the House would play in the amendment to which the clause refers. The amendment will be made through an order that will be laid and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament. The same procedure will apply to the amendment of section 49 of the Audit Commission Act 1998. I stress that clause 54 would not prevent an auditor from
 
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disclosing evidence of corruption or malpractice if they encountered it and felt that they had a duty to bring it to the public.

The hon. Gentleman also spoke about the way in which the previous Government treated whistleblowers. He was right to make that point. Indeed, when I presented a private Member's Bill on the subject, it was thwarted by the previous Government, who did not wish to see it on the statute book.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West welcomed the Bill. I was pleased about that because he brings considerable experience and knowledge of audit matters to the debate. All hon. Members value his contribution and he speaks with authority. I have no doubt that we will take account of the points that he has made and focus on them as we go through Committee stage.

The hon. Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams) joined in welcoming the Bill. As I recall the Welsh Grand Committee debate, he was the only hon. Member who brought a degree of humour to our proceedings. We certainly enjoyed that, and I look forward to the contributions that he will make in Committee. He asked whether there was any information about the future costs of the new Wales Audit Office. The Auditor General will submit his estimate of income and expenditure to the Assembly Audit Committee in autumn this year in the normal way, and it is not possible for me at this stage to pre-empt those estimates.

The hon. Gentleman also asked how we could account for the huge difference between the sizes of part 2, covering local government, and part 3, on the NHS. Of course, the drafting and structure of a Bill are matters for parliamentary counsel. Hon. Members may recall that the Health (Wales) Bill, which reorganised parts of the health service in Wales, ran to 10 clauses, so one cannot read too much into the point that the hon. Gentleman made.

The hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan) said that he felt that the Bill was not bad but could be improved. If he is on the Committee, I shall look forward to his contributions, because when I introduced my private Member's Bill to protect whistleblowers, I believe that he came into the Chamber in order to cause me some grief but was swayed by the power of my argument, and I certainly felt that I had an ally in him as we reached the conclusion of the debate. I was pleased to have him on my side, and was grateful for his contribution.

The hon. Gentleman also referred to the costs of setting up the office and asked where the office would be located. I will deal with that point in a moment. He also touched on the extensive pre-legislative scrutiny. He said that clause 40 required public interest reports to be sent to the Home Secretary, but asked whether they should not also be sent to the Public Accounts Committee. Clause 40 deals only with public interest reports on police authorities in Wales and that is why it is felt that the Home Office is the appropriate recipient of those reports.

The hon. Gentleman asked whether there would be new building costs. The new body proposes to operate from the existing accommodation. The offices of the Auditor General for Wales and the Audit Commission are in close proximity. When the leases of the property
 
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expire, a rationalisation of accommodation may take place, but it will be for the Auditor General to come forward with proposals.

The hon. Member for Bridgwater welcomed the Bill and made a number of important points. I will seek to cover some of them. He raised some detailed points to which I am not able to give a proper response today. I propose to write to him on any points that I do not cover and place a copy of my letter in the Library so that all hon. Members are aware of my responses. The hon. Gentleman asked what powers the Auditor General had to reign in costs at all levels. Contracts for the provision of services to the Auditor General will be the subject of the usual public procurement rules. He asked why there was a need for an Auditor General to run up an overdraft. It is overstating it to say that he would run up an overdraft. The facility gives the Auditor General the ability to cover short-term deficits of income and expenditure. The Auditor General's remit is expanding and this facility is also open to the Audit Commission and the Auditor General for Scotland. This aspect of the finances of the Auditor General for Wales would be subject to scrutiny by the Assembly's Audit Committee, and by the Auditor General for Wales' own external auditors.

Mr. Liddell-Grainger: The other part of my question was: what would happen if the money could not be reclaimed but had been borrowed? Who would be responsible for getting the money back if there was a shortfall?

Mr. Touhig: That is one of the matters that I will write to the hon. Gentleman about at a later stage.

I welcome the hon. Member for East Devon (Mr. Swire) to his first appearance on the Front Bench in a Welsh debate. I look forward to his future contributions. He made some powerful points, and I am sure that we will welcome the contributions that he will make in Committee.

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