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Mr. Forth: I hope that my right hon. Friend will explain how verification would be achieved. Would
 
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people simply declare their religion or would there be an attempt at verification? Is he worried that his new clause contains the seeds of falsification or misrepresentation?

Mr. Knight: When one is framing legislation one must always be aware of the fact that some people will seek to cheat or get round legal restrictions. However, new clause 1(2) enables the local authority to carry out random checks to see whether what is purported to be the case is indeed so. I would rather leave that to the local authority, as the owner of a large shop who wants to trade on Christmas day has to submit a notice to it identifying the shop premises, the owner of the shop and the identity of all employees, which should provide it with sufficient evidence when carrying out random checks to see whether information relating to a shop run and staffed by non-Christians is genuine. My right hon. Friend's fears are therefore groundless.

Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is unlikely that such an application would be made without the employees being aware of it? If the notice stated that they were non-Christian but they were in fact Christian, that would soon be drawn to the attention of the local authority.

Mr. Knight: My hon. Friend is quite right. The employees would appreciate the fact that the owner has to list the people in his employ. If he sought to go behind their backs, they, or any member of their family, could draw the error to the attention of the local authority.

Mr. Win Griffiths (Bridgend) (Lab): Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that, unfortunately, new clause 1(2) provides opportunities that unscrupulous employers of whatever faith have pursued throughout the ages? His proposal is quite unnecessary. We ought to get on and discuss the substance of the Bill, and see it safely through the House.

Mr. Knight: I do not agree. The new clause is necessary, and I do not share the hon. Gentleman's depressing view of employers. If the Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Sutcliffe), thinks that more checks and greater protection against fraud are needed, I am sure that that could be discussed after our debate and perhaps corrected in the other place, if the Bill proceeds that far. I do not accept, however, that any further amendment is necessary.

9.45 am

Mr. Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that his proposal would impose great burdens on shop owners? How would they verify what someone's religion is or is not?

Mr. Knight: That is quite simple. If a shop owner decides towards the end of the summer that he would like to trade on Christmas day, he can call a staff meeting to say that he is thinking of submitting a notice seeking permission to trade, but can only do so if none of his employees is a practising Christian. It would therefore not be difficult for him to seek their views and take soundings.

Mr. Forth: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the intemperate remarks of the hon. Member for Bridgend
 
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(Mr. Griffiths) ignore the fact that the great lacuna in the Bill is the complete lack of protection for employees? If protection in the Sunday Trading Act 1994 had been reproduced in the Bill, my right hon. Friend's new clause would not be necessary at all. He is trying to do something that I failed to do in an amendment that was not selected—he wants to go further than Labour Members and, indeed, the trade union sponsoring the Bill and provide greater protection for a minority of employees.

Mr. Knight: My hon. Friend makes a good point. The question of protection for employees is separate from the argument about whether a shop should be allowed to open. If Labour Members are concerned that a small number of unscrupulous employers would use the new clause to force employees to work so that they can open their shop on Christmas day, they should address that in other ways, as protection for workers is an entirely separate issue. One or two hon. Members have argued that employers would be crafty and deny promotion to someone who has said that they do not want to work on Sundays or Christmas day, but there are ways of dealing with that problem. We could make employers hold a promotion register, in which they would have to say whether, from day one of someone's employment, they are likely to be promoted. If someone is getting 10 out of 10 in the book but is not winning promotion, we could prove that there was discrimination.

Helen Jones (Warrington, North) (Lab): Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that he is going down a road where prying into someone's religion becomes the norm? Surely, no employer has the right to question his employees about whether they have any religious belief. If they kept the promotion register that he suggested, that would make the Bill even more intrusive, as someone's religion would be linked to their employment prospects.

Mr. Knight: If we were dealing with a matter that had nothing whatever to do with religion, the hon. Lady's point might be valid, but we are talking about Christmas day. If we were discussing a Diwali celebrations Bill seeking to impose some restrictions in that regard, religion would be an issue. The fact that we are talking about Christmas day, one of the most sacred days in the calendar for Christians, means that religion is relevant. Labour Members cannot brush religion aside when we are speaking about Christmas day. To some people Christmas day means nothing, and why should it if they are not Christian? The new clause says that a shop that is owned and staffed by people who are not Christian and to whom Christmas day does not mean anything should not be forced to close.

Most of us who have been to our inner cities where there is a large Asian community have nothing but admiration for the number of Asian businessmen who have started with nothing and built up very successful businesses. Why should the state say to someone who owns a large shop and who is an Asian, "You can't open because most people in this country are Christians and
 
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we are telling you you've got to close on Christmas day"? That is unfair. The sole purpose of new clause 1 is to prevent that.

Ms Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): Does the right hon. Gentleman accept the notion of national holidays? I am not a Christian, but I see Christmas day as a national holiday. Does he accept that if a day is seen as a national holiday, everybody who works should have the benefit of it? As he is aware, Easter day is exempt. Does he propose to take the same view of Easter day as he does of Christmas day?

Mr. Knight: I would be brought to heel by the Chair if I exceeded the scope of the Bill. We are talking about Christmas day, not Easter. No, I do not accept that everybody should automatically have a right to a day off on a national holiday. That has never happened. Many people work on national holidays: news readers, paper shops and people in the media. There will always be exemptions. I ask Labour Members, what is wrong with that? Those who are seeking to bring about the change need to show why it should impinge on every culture in the United Kingdom.

Mr. Chope: Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is apparent from the interventions that he has taken, that there is a Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers agenda to give shop workers more days off, and it is being proposed on the basis that it is justified on Christian—

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. I have already said that we are no longer on Second Reading. Perhaps Members will address their comments to the new clause and the amendment under discussion.

Mr. Knight: I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) is not right in his assumption. I trust that anyone who speaks in the debate and who has an interest to declare and who may be sponsored by a union will declare it.

Amendment No. 11 recognises the fact that there may be a view in a local community that runs contrary to the views expressed from the Labour Benches. If that is the case, surely that view should be reflected in a provision for a local community to opt out. The amendment states that the Bill will not apply

"where there is a local public demand"

for a large shop to open on Christmas day, and a local public demand

"shall be deemed to exist for the Christmas Day following where by 1st November in any year the local authority has received a petition signed by no fewer than 1,000 persons

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