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Mr. Forth: Did my right hon. Friend think it odd then, and does he still think it odd now, that in the United States, where Sunday trading is widely practised, church attendance has always been multiples of what it is in this country? More than 40 per cent. of Americans go to church on Sundays, despite shopping before and after, whereas regular church attendance is less than 10 per cent. in this country.

Mr. Knight: I hesitate to go too far down that path, Madam Deputy Speaker, but my right hon. Friend has a point, in that these days many people do more than one thing on Sundays. It is apparent from the American experience that some people go to church and then to the shops, or to the shops and then to church. They do not regard the two as incompatible. Only the trade union involved in this case feels that we should prevent people from shopping in large shops on Christmas day. I do not know why the union takes that view. If it wants to address workers' rights, it should do so totally differently. If there is a demand for large shops to open on Christmas day they should be allowed to do so, according to my proposals.

Mr. Kevan Jones: The right hon. Gentleman is correct in saying that USDAW and other trade unions support the Bill, but it has also received strong support from others. I have letters from local Church groups, and both the established Church and the Catholic Church back the Bill as well.

Mr. Knight: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. Of course, the same range of people told us that we should not get rid of the Shops Act 1950. Those of us who were in government at that time—it was before the 1987 election—went against the advice of all those people. We were told that we would lose support as a party. I have no evidence that people changed their voting patterns because we sought to address the problems of the Shops Act.

Ms Coffey: For the record, I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman knows that USDAW supported the changes to Sunday trading.

Mr. Knight: Churches have been mentioned. The Catholic Church and others did not support the changes. I did not know that the union supported the changes and I am delighted to hear that, but the Churches opposed them.

Mr. Chope: Does my right hon. Friend believe that the Churches' attitude might have been slightly different if they had realised that the USDAW spokesman had said:

"This has nothing to do with religion other than our belief that workers deserve the day off"?

Mr. Knight: I shall not interfere between USDAW and the Churches. I hope that hon. Members, whatever
 
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their party and whether or not they are members of a trade union, will consider the matter fairly, calmly and on its merits. There is an overwhelming case for providing that when a shop owner and the employees are not Christian, they should be exempt from the Bill. New clause 1 tries to achieve that, and I hope that hon. Members will view that as a reasonable position. The House should approve it.

Mr. Brian Jenkins (Tamworth) (Lab): I have been listening to the right hon. Gentleman with growing concern. He implies that a non-Christian shop owner—I can think of a rather large store in London that has a non-Christian owner—should ensure that all his staff are non-Christian, and could thus seek an advantage over a competitor. Is not there an incentive in the new clause for the employer to ensure that all his staff are non-Christian? Imagine the discord that that would cause in stores throughout the country. In a multicultural country, where we are trying to engage with each other, I can envisage no more divisive path than creating shops that are almost ghettoes, with non-Christians in one and Christians in another.

Mr. Knight: The idea that a shop owner will start sacking people and employing non-Christians merely to gain benefit from one trading day a year is incredible. I do not believe that that will happen, especially when some shops might not want to open on Christmas day. However, if they want to open on Christmas day, they should have the right to do that, and be exempt from the legislation.

I believe that hon. Members who feel that the measure is necessary will be prepared to accommodate the views of large shop owners who take a different view and whose staff may take a different view. I therefore hope that new clause 1 and amendment No. 11 will commend themselves to the House.

Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): I shall not detain the House long. I make it clear that, as a Scottish Member, I shall not vote on the Bill, but I have a genuinely held view on its substance. My personal position is that I support the Conservative arguments for extending Sunday trading rules to Christmas, rather than the Bill. I acknowledge that my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) is one of the measure's sponsors. I respect his views, but we do not share the same opinion on the matter.

However, I am worried about the seriousness of the new clause. Most of the interventions have shown that it is not practical, as drafted. The right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight) has two objectives. The first is to extend the debate and the second is to defend not the new clause but the more substantive argument that people should have the freedom to choose what they do on Christmas day rather than having it restricted. I am sure that he acknowledges privately, if not publicly, that trying to isolate a store as non-Christian, requiring a register for a licence and identification of every employee is not a serious practical legislative proposition that any of us would regard as workable. [Interruption.] I do not want to be accused of
 
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delaying the Bill's passage, but Labour Members who supported the Bill intervened often. I am surprised at that, in the context of parliamentary procedure.

I understand what prompted the Bill. First, there is a fear that Christmas day is somehow being lost as a special day. However, the same argument applied to Sunday trading, and I agree with the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire about that. Secondly, there is a worry that pressure will be exerted on individuals to give up their Christmas days. If people do not wish to work on Christmas day for specifically religious reasons, they should be given a legal right not to do that, as applies on Sundays.

10.15 am

I believe that the Bill will generate some negative reactions, because it is trying to reverse a process that is already happening. People choose to shop on Christmas day, and some shops are open. Although many people do not want to work on Christmas day—I am one of them; I want to be at home with my family—I know of people who loathe and detest Christmas day. They want to be out and about with other people, and would prefer to work. The Bill would deny them that right. The extent of the freedom of choice is at the heart of the question of whether we need the Bill.

Mr. Kevan Jones: The law as it stands restricts the activities of large shops if Christmas day falls on a Sunday. If it falls on another day, they can open. The Bill is simply trying to close a loophole. Many hon. Members who spoke on Second Reading believed that the Bill would achieve that. There is not a free-for-all on Christmas day.

Malcolm Bruce: I bring the benefit of being a Scottish Member to the debate: the law on Sunday trading and Christmas trading is different in Scotland. The right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) knows that we did not have restrictive laws in Scotland, basically because people believed that the power of Calvinism would simply prevent such things from happening. As society has changed, the lack of a law has opened up opportunities. Shops are not as restricted in Scotland as they are in England. As someone who sometimes spends a Sunday in London but more often spends it in Scotland, I can say that the difference is marked. People in Scotland who like the current position would not like it if a Bill in the Scottish Parliament extended Sunday trading laws to Scotland on Christmas day.

Mr. Forth: I intervene as a non-Calvinist who was born and raised in Scotland, and who therefore appreciates the hon. Gentleman's comments. We shall all watch with interest the Liberal Democrats' actions in the Scottish Parliament when such a Bill comes before them.

However, we have to acknowledge the profound cultural difference between Scotland and England. When I was raised in Scotland, Christmas day was barely a public holiday, and that continues to inform many people's attitudes. However, the hon. Gentleman
 
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must recognise that the attitude in England is culturally different. Drawing comparisons between England and Scotland on the subject is not helpful.

Malcolm Bruce: I made it clear at the outset that, as a Scottish Member, I would not vote on the Bill unless amendment No. 12 to extend the measure to Scotland were accepted. It is up to the Scottish Parliament to decide. The Liberal Democrats regard the matter as an entirely personal issue—a matter of religion and conscience—and there will be a free vote on it. Although I am the trade and industry spokesman for my party, I am expressing my personal opinion, which is not a party view.

I accept the chastisement of the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst and I do not wish to impose any views or judgments on England. However, I believe that I am qualified to know the difference between England and Scotland, given that I was brought up in England, represent a Scottish constituency and married a wife from London. I therefore believe that I know both communities well.

The serious point that I am making is that the climate has changed, and is changing. At the heart of this debate is the question of whether we need a law to try to protect Christmas day from a change that a significant minority of the population have actively been bringing about. My view is that we need to be careful not to impose restrictions that will be hard to sustain, because I suspect that the number of people who want the choice to make Christmas day different from what most people choose is growing, albeit slowly.

That is all that I want to say. The new clause is an unworkable proposition, and the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire would be wise to withdraw it. He has explored and identified a problem, but I do not think that he has found the solution.

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