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Mr. Kevan Jones: This has been a good debate and I do not want to impugn the motives of the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) and the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight), because they have raised issues that, in a multicultural society, need to be dealt with not only through this Bill but in other areas of public policy. However, there are clear problems in enforcing the provisions in new clause 1.

Several Members have discussed the issue of intrusiveness and how we clarify an individual's religious beliefs. The hon. Member for Christchurch suggested the use of a secret ballot, but that would have to be policed. Do we really want local authorities to be able to pry into people's religious beliefs, which in some cases change over time? In my view, that would not be right, although it might be welcome to the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth), given his libertarian views. The state ought not to be able to ask people what their religious beliefs are.

Moreover, the new clause would lead to discrimination against Christians. Ours is a Christian country and we should recognise that fact through Christmas day and other holidays. As I said earlier, it is clear that, under the new clause, if a Christian joined the staff of a shop the majority of whose employees were non-Christian, the shop could no longer open on Christmas day. That would put pressure on people to hire only non–Christians, and I am sorry, but I do not agree with that at all. Likewise, pressure should not be put on such an individual by non-Christians to change their religion or to leave the store's employment, simply because of their religious beliefs. It is a fundamental freedom of this country that the law and society tolerates religious beliefs irrespective of their nature; long may that continue.

Mr. Greg Knight: The hon. Gentleman is making a thoughtful response to this debate, for which we are all obliged. However, is there not a flaw in the argument that he is developing? If a store were composed largely, but not exclusively, of non-Christian employees, the
 
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store owner could rely on amendment No. 11. He need not necessarily take action through the religious exception; he could seek to test support in the local community for his store's opening on Christmas day, so the effect that the hon. Gentleman fears might not come about.

Mr. Jones: I am grateful for that intervention and I shall deal with amendment No. 11 in a moment. In fact, new clause 1 contains the following phrase:

"Where the owner of a large shop employs entirely non-Christian employees".

It is clear that there would be pressure to employ people who are not Christian, if employing Christians would prevent shop owners from opening on Christmas day.

The issue has rightly been raised of large Asian shops situated in multicultural areas. My Bill simply seeks to bring Christmas day into line with the Sunday Trading Act 1994. As things stand, a large store of more than 3,000 sq ft cannot in any case open on Christmas day if it falls on a Sunday, so my proposal can hardly be described as draconian.

There is another problem with new clause 1. How would we police its provisions and verify people's individual religious beliefs? The new clause makes reference to a cut-off date of 1 November, but it is clear that employees will join and leave a store during the course of a given year, and in that regard the provision would put an administrative burden not only on the owner, but on the local authority in question.

When the Department of Trade and Industry put out for consultation the proposal that Christmas day be brought into line with the 1994 Act, the various religious groups made no representations whatsoever. Although I understand the spirit behind the new clause, it would be difficult to enforce in practice and administratively very expensive.

Mr. Knight: If the hon. Gentleman's Bill passes through this House today—in whatever form—and if, before it completes its entire legislative passage, members of the Asian community and non-Christian shop owners indicate that they want to discuss their concerns about the Bill with him, can he assure the House that he would be willing to agree to such a meeting?

Mr. Jones: I can, and I am sure that the Minister will want to address that issue in his reply. But in terms of public consultation—

Mr. Sutcliffe: Given that my hon. Friend has worked extensively on this Bill, he will be aware of the consultation that took place in 2003, and of the fact that no other religious groups commented on the proposals in the Bill. They did not regard them as a problem.

Mr. Jones: I certainly want to reinforce that point. I have received letters from owners of smaller shops in my constituency—very hard-working non-Christian families—expressing some concern. However, this Bill will not restrict their trade on Christmas day and other such days. So although I understand the reasoning behind the new clause, because of the way in which it is framed it would be very difficult to enforce and very expensive to implement.
 
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Various issues have been raised in the debate, and the question arises of whether we want to open up the can of worms that is the 1994 Act. Perhaps it is time to look at some of the broader issues, although I accept that such legislation had a painful passage when it was last considered in the House.

New clause 11 tries to address an issue that the hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr. Paterson) raised on Second Reading: Stan's Shop, and the question of local demand for stores to open in rural areas. I looked into whether that could be done. This is an attempt to do so, and I accept the spirit in which it has been proposed. Again, however, the issues raised in the debate this morning have shown that, in practice, it will prove very difficult. For example, the question of why it should be 1,000 persons has been raised. It would be a problem if 1,000 people in a town or village wanted the shops to open, but another 3,000, or 4,000 did not. Who would arbitrate on whether the store should be open?

Another problem is that many large shops are based out of town. To take one example, Sainsbury's in Pitty Me—just over the border of my constituency and in that of my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Mr. Steinberg)—serves a large catchment area. It straddles two local district council areas. Many people in my constituency might want the store to be open on Christmas day, but those in the neighbouring constituency might not. That is always a problem when stores straddle constituency or local authority borders.

Another problem with the proposals is that they could lead to aggressive campaigning between various stores. The whole point of my Bill is to ask whether consumer demand should dictate whether stores open on Christmas day. I do not believe that it should, because, for reasons that were advanced on Second Reading, I want Christmas day to be a special day.

Finally, the proposals are not practicable because of the possible horrendous costs that would be incurred by local authorities in attempting to police the measures. Amendment No. 11 refers to the electoral registers as providing proof that people are indeed who they claim to be. However, having to check every one of the 1,000 names would be onerous. Similarly, I know that when constituents are thanked for signing a petition, they often say, "When did I sign that?" It would again be difficult to police the names on the petition. I finish by acknowledging the reasons behind the proposals, particularly in rural constituencies such as my own.

Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I hope that the House will forgive me for speaking briefly on this matter. I am motivated to contribute because our interesting debate has pointed to a fundamental dilemma in our society. I have one crucial point. I am not a libertarian, although I understand the libertarian point of view, whereby society should not judge anything and people should be allowed to do anything that they want, as long as they do not harm other people. That is not my view because I believe in society. I believe in the building blocks of society—family, community and nation. Christmas day is part of our culture.

I believe that there is something dangerous about the proposed amendments. New clause 1 is particularly dangerous because it identifies one part of our community and sets it apart from others. I recognise
 
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that although we are still a predominantly Christian country, many people are not Christians. We all accept that, and it does not matter. The fact remains that we are a predominantly Christian society. We recognise that there are Muslims, Hindus, Jews, non-believers, atheists, agnostics and so forth. That is fine: let them all have their beliefs, but we are a fundamentally Christian society.

What worries me about the new clause is that it identifies certain people as being different. It is, of course, completely unworkable in any event. It requires only one member of staff to be a Christian for the new clause to be inapplicable. Are there any shops in that position? I doubt it, but that is not the point. The problem is that the proposals are about creating a new society in our country, in which people are deliberately set apart because of their religion. They are placed in a sort of ghetto, which I believe is profoundly dangerous. We should never allow that.

11.15 am

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