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Mr. Knight: If my right hon. Friend looks at the 1994 Act, he will see that paragraph 3(1)(d) states that a registered pharmacy is exempt only if it

"is not open for the retail sale of any goods other than medicinal products and medical and surgical appliances".

Amendment No. 10 is drafted slightly wider, and would allow a Boots type of store to open and sell any of the products within its range.

Mr. Forth: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, and I am sure that he will want to expand on that in due course. It just shows how carelessly I read his amendment, and schedule 1.

I might mention in passing—I will return to this theme on Third Reading—that I have looked at what happens in other countries. Although we should never slavishly follow what happens in other countries, it can sometimes be quite informative. I got the Library to look at what happens in broadly relevant and parallel countries, such as Canada, Australia and the United States—[Interruption.] I deliberately did not mention any European countries, because I do not regard them as in any way parallel or similar to this country in any respect, either politically or culturally. I preferred to look at the real countries of Canada, Australia and the United States, as opposed to the increasingly pseudo countries absorbed into the ever more embracing European Union.

In Canada on Christmas day and new year's day, all businesses affected by the Retail Business Holidays Act must close unless they qualify for an exemption. The exemptions are interesting. I did not replicate them in my amendments, but in a way, I wish that I had. According to the Act, small stores under 2,400 sq ft—note the square feet; the good old Canadians are at least traditional in that respect—with a maximum of three employees, which is a variable that we have not introduced, that sell food, tobacco, antiques or handicrafts, may be open. That is another interesting possibility that we might want to consider at a subsequent stage. Gas stations and garden supply outlets are also exempt from closing requirements. Other exceptions affect businesses including laundromats and car rental offices, which are not defined by law as retail businesses, and therefore not bound by the Act.

I mentioned that in passing, just to illustrate the different nuances that one can get in other broadly similar cultures. They are worth looking at, and we may want to return to them. Perhaps I am just putting down a marker that should I ever come anywhere near the top of the private Members' Bill ballot, which I pray every year I will not, there may be some scope for coming back to the issue of Sunday trading and Christmas day trading and reconsidering the exemptions.

I have just described my little list of exemptions. I hope that the House is sympathetic to it, because by and large, it is pretty innocuous and, in some cases, would be
 
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genuinely valuable. I hope that the House will find relevant the fact that a similar approach is taken in other countries—I gave just one example, that of Canada. I also hope that the House accepts that this is an appropriate occasion to reconsider the list, to update it and to make it a bit more flexible to meet the reasonable needs that I am sure can exist on Christmas day.

Malcolm Bruce: The right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) has got himself into some difficulties. I am not sure which way he is coming from. Having been on the receiving end of his taunts about my party, I must say that he seems to be behaving in the way in which he usually accuses Liberal Democrats of behaving, which is to face both ways.

On the more serious matter of the Bill, the starting point is that Christmas day should be special and, in an ideal world, no one would be shopping or doing anything on it. Then we say that we should look at the parallel of the Sunday trading laws to specify what people should and should not do on Christmas day. That is worrying, because the House is making choices about what people should or should not do on Christmas day. The amendments tabled by the right hon. Gentleman demonstrate the anomaly of that position, as it would be all right to buy strong liquor but not books. People talk about the classic values of Victorian Britain, but Scrooge could buy almost everything that he needed on Christmas morning after his conversion by the three ghosts overnight. In Victorian Britain, restrictive trading was not common.

Mr. Sutcliffe: Good legislation is the result of consultation, and this Bill was subject to thorough consultation. More than 90 per cent. of respondents favoured keeping Christmas day special, which is why the Bill has proceeded as far as it has.

Malcolm Bruce: I am grateful to the Minister. As I have made clear, I favour keeping Christmas day special. My family and I, like many other people, treat it as a special day. I am not an avid churchgoer, but I sometimes take my family to church at Christmas. I celebrate Christmas as a family event, but I also acknowledge its religious significance, and I believe that the majority of people in the country want to do the same. I am not hostile to the Bill, as I understand the motivation behind it, but I have some practical reservations. We seem to be saying that big shops should not open but lots of little ones should.

Chris Bryant: We are saying that they can open.

Malcolm Bruce: I accept the hon. Gentleman's point, but there seems to be an arbitrary distinction about which shops should open. Are we saying that people should be allowed to work and shop if they choose, but only at places specified on a list? I accept that there has been consultation on the nature of those outlets, but we are nevertheless making a decision about what it is reasonable for people to do. It is one thing to say that we want to observe Christmas day and keep it special, but another to say that as a result only certain shops can open at certain times.
 
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Consultation on the Sunday trading laws showed that while people accept restrictions on the opening hours of supermarkets and other shops in England, many believe that 10 am is a late opening time. If someone wakes early on a Sunday morning and decides that they want bacon and eggs for breakfast, 10 am may be a little late to go out and buy them. I do not know whether that is the reasoning behind their choice, but people would like the shops to open a little earlier. We are therefore in danger of passing a Bill that, in five or 10 years' time—and probably long before that—Members will wish to amend in the light of changing circumstances.

The amendments tabled by the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst therefore demonstrate that we are making an arbitrary distinction, which does not make sense in relation to individual choice. I freely concede that I have always taken a libertarian position on the matter, just as I have on Sunday trading.

Mr. Forth: I am slightly disappointed to be getting the blame as I, too, am reluctant to accept the anomalous list of exemptions in the Sunday Trading Act 1994 that the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) has transferred to his Bill. I am simply trying to make that list less anomalous or more flexible, and I should have thought that the hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) would approve of that. If he does not like the restrictions in the existing list, can he not go along with my slightly less restrictive list?

Malcolm Bruce: I probably could, but I am not sure what sort of legislation the right hon. Gentleman wants. I am fairly certain what he does not want, but I am not at all sure what he does want. I have made my preferences clear, and the majority of my colleagues are enthusiastic in their support for the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones). Keeping Christmas day special commands widespread support, and many people who are not religious or whose faith is non-Christian accept that others wish to do so. However, that does not mean that we should impose a restrictive framework on which shops should open and what people can and cannot do, and the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst has highlighted that dilemma.

12 noon

Mr. Gerald Howarth : First, I apologise to the promoter of the Bill, of which I am a strong supporter, for not being present earlier.

The day my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) is successful in the ballot for private Members' Bills, in whatever position but particularly if he is in the top six, he may rest assured that on the days on which his Bill appears before the House, the House will never have been so full on a Friday of hon. Members seeking to exact the maximum revenge and subjecting his Bill to the depth of scrutiny to which he has subjected any number of Bills on a Friday. Of course, we all thoroughly support my right hon. Friend in pursuing his parliamentary duty so diligently that he has ensured that much legislation that would otherwise have gone through without the requisite scrutiny has been subjected to proper scrutiny. Nevertheless, we all look forward to the day that his Bill comes in the first six.
 
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As I said, I am a strong supporter of the Bill. Like the hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce), I believe that Christmas day is particularly special in this country, and that that is the view of the overwhelming majority of people in this country. It is therefore important that we ensure that the special character of Christmas day remains. That is the purpose of the Bill, as much as it is to ensure that those who wish to spend Christmas day with their family are able to do so and are not obliged to work or penalised for wishing to observe Christmas day with their family.

When moving the amendments, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst started by saying that he was looking to repeal some of the exemptions. In fact, all he has done is to add to the list of exemptions. As I am not, like him, a libertarian, although I believe in individual freedom, I hoped he would help us repeal some of the exemptions, but he added more. There must be a question as to whether farm shops ought to be open on Christmas day and whether there is something special about them or about off-licences. The rest of the existing exemptions are there for good reason.

I suggest to my right hon. Friend that the exemptions fall into two categories. The first is emergency services. We would all agree that the availability of medical supplies at pharmacies on Christmas day would fall into that category. Unless we propose to stop trains and cars running, it is important that those facilities should also be open. I am not sure about exhibition stands. I do not see why those should be open on Christmas day.

The other exemptions fall into the second category, which I would describe as facilitating the getting together of families on Christmas day. We live in a society where families are widely dispersed throughout the land, so for many families it is, sadly, essential that they drive on Christmas day in order to be with their relatives. Unless families are fortunate enough to drive a car with good fuel consumption, which I do, even though it is a French car—I cannot help that—they will have to refuel. It is unrealistic to expect petrol stations to remain open but not the shops attached to them. Anyway, those shops fall within the small shop category. So there seems to be a lot of logic in some of those exemptions in so far as they fall into those two categories, but the Government—who, I understand, support the Bill—might usefully consider removing some of the exemptions in so far as they do not fall into those categories, particularly if they are determined to maintain the special nature of Christmas day.

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