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Mr. Chope: What does my hon. Friend think about the rules on stations? Stations are not open on Christmas day because the people who run the railways do not think that there is sufficient demand. They do not buy into his argument that travelling by train on Christmas day is necessary to facilitate families' getting together.
Mr. Howarth: As train services do not run on Christmas day, there is no need for railway shops to open. I am glad to have my hon. Friend's support.
Mr. Howarth: Does my right hon. Friend wish to support me as well?
Mr. Forth:
I was slightly disappointed that my hon. Friend sought to criticise me for not seeking to reduce
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the list of exemptions. He had ample opportunity, did he not, to table amendments to the Bill, but he saw fit not to do so; so I find his criticism rather misplaced.
Mr. Howarth: I did not realise that my right hon. Friend was so sensitive. He is one of my very closest friends, and I have clearly hurt him. I really do apologise to him. I will buy him half a pint of beer to make amends. Of course, he is on rather stronger ground in so far as he is quite right: I should have tabled some amendments to give expression to our mutual desire to reduce regulation.
Inevitably, the list is arbitrary—the point that my right hon. Friend is making—and it is pointless to pretend otherwise. We are trying to achieve a proper modus vivendi, whereby we can facilitate people travelling to their families on Christmas day and provide emergency facilities for people. Those are the two criteria that should apply. In so far as any of the exemptions does not fall within those criteria, it could usefully be excluded. Perhaps that is, unfortunately, for another day. I hope that my right hon. Friend will see fit to withdraw the amendment in due course.
Mr. Greg Knight: I rise to speak primarily to amendment No. 10. I would welcome hearing what the Minister has to say about that amendment because, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) has said, it is similar to the exemption in paragraph 3(1)(d) of schedule 1 to the Sunday Trading Act 1994, but it does not mirror that exemption. The 1994 Act exempts
"any shop that . . . is a registered pharmacy, and . . . is not open for the sale of goods other than medicinal products and medical and surgical appliances."
That could cause a difficulty for large stores, such as those in the Boots Group, that are primarily chemists and pharmacies, but which over the years have started to sell other products. One can imagine, for example, a pensioner going into one of those shops on Christmas day to get some urgently needed pills and wanting to buy a shower cap while in the store. As I read the original 1994 Act, those in the shop would commit an offence if they sold a product that could not be described as a medical or surgical appliance while trading on Christmas day. In this day and age, it would be unrealistic to expect the owner of such a large pharmacy somehow to block off or cover certain stalls. Does it really matter if an item that is not strictly medical is bought as an ancillary purchase?
Ms Coffey: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that 3,000 sq ft is a large area? Many Boots shops are smaller than that and current Sunday trading laws do not apply to them. The Bill would not apply to them, either. He gave an example of a pensioner who goes to a store. She would be more likely to go to a small store, which could open if Boots wanted it to. The area of 3,000 sq ft is large and we are therefore considering large Boots stores that are sometimes located outside town centres. We should bear that in mind.
Mr. Knight:
I accept that, but the local chemist may decide that he does not want to open. Anyone who has
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to go out for a medicinal supply on Christmas day must shop around. As the hon. Lady knows, chemist's shops often put notices on their doors to help their customers, explaining that they are closed on Christmas day, but that store X at Y street is open. The amendment would ensure that a large pharmacy that opened would not run the risk of being prosecuted for selling goods other than the medicinal products that are mentioned in the 1994 Act.
Mr. Forth: I did not want to let the hon. Lady's intervention pass without pointing out that 3,000 sq ft is no bigger than an average-sized detached house. We are not used in this country to measuring house sizes in sq ft but I assure my right hon. Friend that a house of 3,000 sq ft is no bigger than average. Such a store would not therefore be very large.
Mr. Knight: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend and I hope that the Under-Secretary accepts that amendment No. 10 is not a wrecking amendment, but seeks a modest relaxation of the rules simply to ensure that the large pharmacy that goes to the trouble of opening on Christmas day does not have to monitor the items that it sells through the till. I therefore hope that he will react favourably to amendment No. 10.
Amendment No. 8, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst tabled, is interesting. First, it goes against everything for which he has argued in the past: giving Ministers the power to prescribe regulations that the House does not supervise. In other words, the amendment would give a Minister carte blanche. Secondly, if I understand the amendment correctly, it would mean that a Minister would be in order to say, "I now have the power to make the regulations. I do not think that the measure needs to be widened and I therefore decline to make them." It would appear to give a Minister the opportunity to take the power to widen the scope of the Bill without giving hon. Members a commitment that he intends to use it.
The power is useful because it would mean that we did not have to go through the process again if any further minor adjustments were deemed necessary in future. Oppositions do not normally like giving Ministers such a power. However, in the case that we are considering, the Minister might want to reflect on it and decide to accept it even if he has no intention of using it today.
The hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) made several attacks on my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst. For example, he said that, a moment ago, my right hon. Friend opposed new clause 1 but now advocated amendment No. 8, and that my right hon. Friend did not support giving Ministers powers to make law through regulations but now proposed that. My right hon. Friend based much of his speech in a bookshop. He reminds one of the character in literature called Janus, given that his arguments have changed since the earlier part of the debate to the view that he has now reached. However, I am delighted to support amendment No. 8.
My right hon. Friend has not persuaded me about amendments Nos. 6 and 7 because of the point that the hon. Member for Stockport (Ms Coffey) made. My point about chemists was different and I believe that if one wishes to buy a book on Christmas day, one does
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not need to have recourse to a large bookshop. I am therefore sorry that my right hon. Friend has not carried me with him on amendments Nos. 6 and 7.
12.15 pm
Mr. Kevan Jones: I accept that the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) is trying, with his amendments, to open up the debate on exemptions. The problem with framing this Bill, as with the 1994 Act, has been that whatever we add to the list of exemptions will create difficulties. The right hon. Gentleman is correct in asserting that I do not want to reopen the entire debate on the 1994 Act, because I was not a Member at that time, but I know that there was much heated debate and horse trading to get it enacted.
Turning to the points that have been made on amendment No. 6—for example, on books—the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) is quite right to say that there are many outlets for access to a Bible on Christmas day. Someone can view a Bible in a church, for example. In the smaller bookshops that still exist and have not been taken over by larger retailers, Bibles can be purchased, along with a whole range of books. On the point about being able to buy gifts, convenience stores, railways stations and other outlets have a range of books available. In all honesty, I would not consider the ability to purchase a book as an essential service, unlike access to a pharmacy.
Mr. Jones: That might be essential for the celebration of Christmas in some people's eyes, although I would not agree.
We come back to the point that several Members made eloquently on Second Reading: are we suggesting that, with all the trading days that we have in the year, Christmas should be just another trading day because people cannot plan their Christmas shopping during the lead-up to Christmas? That period already sees not only every Sunday being used for shopping, but late-night opening and other ample opportunities for people to buy everything, including booze and Bibles, that they wish to purchase.
There is a similar position with children's toys and games. I know that the family of the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) will be waiting in trepidation for a visit on Christmas day from the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst, but I am sure that, should he arrive, he would have had ample opportunity on the way to Gainsborough to purchase small gifts for them.
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