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Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. I wish the right hon. Gentleman had not heard that comment. I wish it had not been uttered.

Mr. Knight: I do not think that those involved knew that I was staying at the hotel. What happened brought home to me the unnecessary intrusion that many people who live near to such supermarkets must suffer in what is supposed to be their private home life. Although they must often bite their lip and live with such activities during the week, I think that they could do without such a nuisance on Sundays and on Christmas day.
 
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If the Minister is unable or unwilling to accept the amendment today, I hope that he will do what he did in respect of amendment No. 10, which I tabled—recognise that an issue needs to be addressed and undertake to look at the matter and amend the Bill during the remainder of its passage.

Mr. Forth: Does my right hon. Friend accept that the rather unusual schedule for private Members' legislation this year—the final day for considering it in the Commons is 15 October—presents us with an opportunity? If the promoter or the Minister is unwilling to accept the amendment, there would be an opportunity for them to seek to amend the Bill in the Lords, after which it could comfortably return to this House by 15 October for us to deal with the matter then. Unusually, that opportunity exists; indeed, I understand that that is one of the reasons why the Government schedule private Members' Bills to run so late in the year.

Mr. Knight: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for pointing out to the House the opportunities that exist for making such an amendment. I do not mind how the Minister does it, but I hope that he will do something to alleviate the problems and nuisance that this loophole will undoubtedly cause.

Mr. Kevan Jones: The hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) summed up the effects of unloading and deliveries on those who live close to large out-of-town retail outlets. The disturbance will often occur at very unsocial hours. Such problems are bad enough for people who live in city centres, but many people who live in what used to be semi-rural areas are now suffering the effects of early morning deliveries, and I sympathise with them. I also sympathise with the amendment, because the main thrust of my Bill is to keep that one day of the year, Christmas day, special not only for shop workers, but for people's enjoyment. Peace and quiet on a Christmas day should be a right.

I am told that the drafting of the amendment means that is it not technically possible for it to achieve what it seeks to do, so I ask the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) to seek leave to withdraw it. The only fear that I have—although I accept the remarks of the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight), who has more experience of such matters—is that if the Bill goes to the other place in that way, it will run out of legislative time. If we have full co-operation in all parts of the House, it should not be beyond our wit to come up with something that could meet aspirations that I would sympathise with, as would all Labour Members.

Mr. Chope: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that if an amendment were carried in the other place, it would be the first business when the Bill returned to this House on 15 October, because Lords amendments will take priority over everything else?

Mr. Jones: As the hon. Gentleman knows, my main interest is to get the Bill through. With active co-operation from Opposition Members, I think that such
 
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a process would be a way forward. I know from the comments that have been made by Opposition Members that the Bill has their support and sympathy, as well as that of Labour Members. If we can come up with a proposal, I would hope to see a way forward. However, it would be sad if the Bill were to fall on one technicality. The active support and co-operation of all hon. Members would be needed.

Mr. Knight: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The promoter of the Bill has made a number of fair comments about his concern that if the Bill is amended in the way in which I think all hon. Members wish it to be amended, it may fall. The Minister has a team with him, although I know that we are not supposed to see them. Would you be prepared to accept a manuscript amendment on this matter, so that it can be dealt with today?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: I would want to hear from the Minister before I adjudicated on such a question.

1 pm

Mr. Sutcliffe: We do have a difficulty, which has been identified. I want to meet the spirit of the amendment, but it is technically deficient and would not achieve what the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) wants it to achieve. I am also aware of what my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) said about the procedural situation. Amendment No. 10 is different because it can be covered in guidance. Amendment No. 5, however, is about prohibition and would need to be on the face on the Bill. I am sympathetic to the amendment and look to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for guidance on how we can get round the problem. I am prepared to consider the amendment, but I do not want to commit to a course of action that would cause us to lose the Bill.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: If it is the general will of the House to overcome what might otherwise be seen as a technical difficulty, the Chair is prepared to accept a manuscript amendment, but it will have to be presented very quickly indeed if it is to be dealt with in an orderly manner before the House moves to Third Reading.

Mr. Knight: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Further to your ruling, would the answer be for the House to adjourn for 15 minutes so that those involved with the Bill can draft the manuscript amendment?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: No, I do not think that I can afford to prejudice the laid down business of the House by an adjournment of that kind. Some swift action has to be taken. I am sure that it is not beyond the ingenuity of right hon. and hon. Members to allow a few moments for further consideration of the matter while appropriate wording is formulated.

Mr. Forth: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It would be very helpful if the Minister gave us an idea of the extent of the variation in the wording that would be required to bring it into order in a way that he would find acceptable. If my wording needs to be altered only very slightly, rather than more radically, that could be done quickly in the form of a manuscript
 
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amendment. We look to the Minister for guidance on whether my amendment can be manually tweaked and laid before the House.

Mr. Sutcliffe: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The right hon. Members for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight) and for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) held ministerial positions under the previous Government and know that officials become jittery when Ministers try to accommodate the will of the House on the hoof at the Dispatch Box. Officials want to ensure that we meet the requirements of parliamentary counsel. The difficulty is that tweaking the words may seem appropriate to us, but may not be helpful for parliamentary counsel. I understand that information is being checked with parliamentary counsel. Although I accept the spirit of what we are all trying to achieve, it would be wrong of me to undertake to alter words without the support of legal and parliamentary counsel.

Mr. Chope: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. If the Minister sat down now, would it be possible for him to get leave to speak again if, in the intervening period, other people who wish to speak in the debate were to do so?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: That would be a matter for the House. I think that I should refine my earlier ruling. In making it, I was not aware of exactly how procedurally easy and technically correct it would be to identify the correct wording. There will be a further opportunity, if a formulation can be found, for an amendment to be introduced in another place if there is a clear indication that the Minister intends to respond to the wishes of the House in that respect. It would not be appropriate for me to hold up the business of the House to facilitate something that cannot be done very quickly and in a way that satisfies all the tests that legislation should pass. This is not the absolute last-ditch time that we can put right a matter that the House wants to see effected in the Bill.

Mr. Knight: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. No doubt the whole House is grateful for your ruling. If my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) catches your eye and speaks for a few minutes when the Minister finishes his remarks—he may have already finished; I am not certain—perhaps the Minister could take that opportunity to find out whether the manuscript amendment is in order. In that way, we may still be able to dispose of the matter today.

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