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Mr. Gerald Howarth:
I pay tribute to the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones), with whom I have had the pleasure of serving for two years on the Defence Committee, for introducing the Bill with cross-party support. I am delighted to support the Bill; I believe it to be important. I recognise that there is an element of the handout in the nature of the Bill—it enjoys the support of the Government—but there is no
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harm in that; it ensures that something that most hon. Members agree is an important measure will be placed on the statute book. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman and others on the work that they have done in bringing it to this point.
As the hon. Gentleman rightly said a few moments ago, the Bill has been introduced not just for the benefit of shop workers, although that is an important consideration in itself. There is no doubt that shop workers, even if they have the protection of the law, nevertheless feel that if they say that they will not work on Christmas day, just as perhaps some say that they will not work on Sundays, they will be discriminated against in an imperceptible fashion. That would be most unfortunate. The Bill will serve to give them that protection.
As the hon. Gentleman also said, however, the Bill will proceed to the statute book with the support of the major retailers. One might argue that it is a shame that they feel the necessity to have the force of law to protect them from themselves or, indeed, from the venal nature of their customers. Nevertheless, the support of major retailers and, indeed, widespread public support for the Bill is another reason for accepting it.
The Bill also benefits the country because it reinforces the special nature of Christmas day in this country. Easter and Christmas are our two great Christian festivals. Anything that detracts from their observance detracts from the integrity of our country. Freedom of religion in this country separates us from many other countries. My brother-in-law and sister-in-law worked in the middle east and the same ability to follow one's religion as Muslims find here does not exist in Muslim countries. That is because Christianity is an especially tolerant religion.
However, it is important to send a clear message that this is a Christian country not only because Christianity is a tolerant religion but because it is the basis on which the country has been moulded. It is the basis for all the laws that we pass. The Christian code of conduct—the ten commandments—is probably the best summary of how to live one's life. All our legislation should be based on the Christian code, which has forged the nation over the years. There is no doubt that it is under threat.
I do not go to church every Sunday but when I drive there I see the new religion expressing itself in a variety of forms, not least the car boot sale. Thousands of people go to car boot sales every Sunday. If they do not do that, they are often on the football pitch. I believe that people should be entitled to do what they want in this country—I am a high Tory, not a libertarian. However, I believe that it is important to ensure that the Christian nature of this country is reinforced, not diminished. The Bill conveys that clear message and also protects shop workers.
For what purpose does the Bill protect shop workers? It protects them for the purpose that we, as Christians, believe to be necessary: to enable them to be with their families. We accept that not all members of the emergency services can be with their families but we must ensure that we make it easier for people to spend Christmas day with their families. The Bill will secure that.
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I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier). I know that he shares my convictions and I congratulate him on the part that he has played in supporting the measure not only from the Opposition Front Bench but in multifarious ways, to ensure that we do all that we can to preserve the nuclear family as the building block of our society. I commend the Bill to the House.
1.23 pm
Mr. Pickthall: I begin by declaring an interest in that I have been a member of USDAW for a long time. I shall make a couple of brief points. The Bill deals with working people in businesses that do not need to be open on Christmas day. We fully understand that some workers, such as members of the emergency services, have to work on Christmas day. We also understand that some people choose to work on Christmas day, especially those in small retail outlets that serve immediate neighbourhoods—garages and so on.
However, not only do the large stores not need to be open on Christmas day but they do not wish to do so. The only large retailer that would make some extra profit would be the first one to open on Christmas day. The following Christmas day, all the other stores would be open as well, so each would then take only a proportionate share of its usual customer spend on that particular day—spend that would otherwise have been taken on Christmas eve or Boxing day.
Mr. Kevin Hughes: Does my hon. Friend agree that when the consultation was done, it was the fear of the domino effect that concerned most retailers? Most did not want to open on Christmas day but thought that if their opposition were opening on Christmas day, they would have to. I do not know whether my hon. Friend will agree, but this literally comes down to the suggestion, "For Christ's sake, have a day off!"
Mr. Pickthall: I should not have put it quite like that, but my hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that there is a relentless process of follow my leader in the supermarket business, in which all the supermarkets are inescapably locked. None of them dares to step an inch out of line for fear of losing an inch of market share, and the workers are simply dragged along in the slipstream unless we are careful to protect them. On Second Reading, the hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack) summed up the point extremely well when he said that the retailers seemed to be saying to us, "We do not want to open, so please legislate to prevent us from opening."
Of course, this debate is essentially about protecting retail workers for one day a year—just one day, the day when, as has been said over and over again, most families want to be together to celebrate, relax and have a good time. That seems to be a modest thing for us to ask and to legislate on. Just to illustrate that point, I came across a comment by Sylvia Bew, an USDAW member in London who works for Sainsbury's, in an USDAW document on the subject. She pointed out that last Christmas Sainsbury's decided to open some of its London stores but did not announce that decision to its workers until Christmas eve. It is hard to imagine anything more disruptive to a worker's life, or more callous, but it is the inevitable result of a firm's trying to
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steal a march on the follow-my-leader structure that I described a moment ago—something, however, that they can do only once. It is the inexorability of that process that the Bill is trying to end.
I finish by heartily congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) on the immense amount of clever work that he has done on the Bill over many months. That has been a fine example of how to pursue a private Member's Bill, and not only my union but his will be very proud of him.
1.27 pm
Malcolm Bruce: It is interesting that employees and major traders support the thrust of the Bill. Of course, the very fact that major traders want the Bill shows that there are people who would like larger shops to be open on Christmas day, so I wonder whether, in the end, it will slow, rather than stop, the process. As I have said in interventions, there are anomalies about the things that we think that people can and cannot do on Christmas day. We cannot protect catering workers on Christmas day, for example, because many people want to go out to hotels or restaurants for their Christmas dinner or lunch, and no one is suggesting that those workers should have their right to be at home with their family protected. We are taking an arbitrary view that shopping is something that should not happen on Christmas day, while many other activities may go on.
I am not against that, and I understand the reasoning behind it. I have already said that I share the view that Christmas day is, and should be, special. I simply make the observation that I suspect that in a few years' time there will be pressure on the House to introduce more liberal trading laws for Christmas day. I am not sure that the House can stop that process indefinitely, although clearly, after consultation, there is a mood at this time to preserve the current status of Christmas day and the existing role of large traders. Were traders to take a different view, and begin to want to open on Sundays, considerable pressure would be brought to bear on Members to change the law.
At the moment, traders seem to make the simple analysis that because there is only so much trade to be had, opening on Christmas day and having to pay extra rates would not increase the total amount of trade, so if they all agree, or if legislation requires them all to agree, they can protect the status quo. I give as an example the independent line that John Lewis took on Mondays. To give its partners a two-day weekend, albeit not at the weekend, John Lewis maintained Sunday and Monday closing for many years. In recent years, the forces of competition have increasingly put pressure on it to open on a Monday, and I am not sure whether any John Lewis store still closes on a Monday. I know for a fact that only in the past year or two has the store in Aberdeen yielded, which demonstrates the pressures.
This is an English Bill and, as a Scottish Member, it is not my job to oppose or resist it; I simply make a contribution to the debate. The Scottish Parliament is considering a similar Bill, and this debate will help to inform it. If the Bill proceeds in Scotland, I hope that the debate on the previous amendment on loading, and the difficulties in that regard, will assist the legislative process. Clearly, the issue is not different north and south of the border.
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I accept that it is an ironic unintended consequence that the recent divergence that has developed between the position in England and Scotland is as a result of an anomalous situation—Scotland, having a much tighter observance in the past, did not have the legislation. As the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) rightly pointed out, however, Christmas was not celebrated vigorously in the Presbyterian tradition, although I can testify that Christmas day is now celebrated in Scotland every bit as enthusiastically as in the rest of the United Kingdom.
There are real issues of debate. I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but when we pass legislation we should recognise that it is a compromise—not a very tidy one—and that many of the issues behind it will not go away. It is right to keep the issue simple and in line with Sunday trading. Clearly, as the Bill operates on that basis, it has widespread acceptance, and deserves to get the support of both Houses. Therefore, in spite of my reservations I congratulate the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) on his Bill, and wish him well. I know that he has the enthusiastic support of many of my colleagues.
1.32 pm
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