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The Prime Minister: Yes. European defence and common foreign policy.
The Prime Minister: Yes. The common agricultural policy, and this is what the right hon. and learned Gentleman said in relation to the common fisheries policy: on 9 June he wrote to one of his hon. Friends saying that he would not just withdraw from the common fisheries policy but, if others refused to renegotiate, defy the law and pull out of the common fisheries policy altogether. What would happen if others then said that they would not allow British goods to come into the single market or that they would use that practice against us? The truth is that he is in a position that no British Prime Minister would ever want this country to be in.
The real surrender is not the surrender of Britain's identity to a European superstate, but the surrender of the Tory party to a position on Europe that no Tory party in government, when faced with the responsibilities of government and when faced with the realities of government, would ever have dreamt of taking. That is why Lord Heseltine said yesterday—[Interruption.] It is interesting, is it not, that the person who was Deputy Prime Minister under the last Conservative Government is now so ridiculed by Conservative Members that they are not even prepared to listen to him?
This will indeed be an historic debate. It will pit reason against prejudice. It will pit true leadership in Britain's long-term interests against a transient
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populism that actually betrays the very national interest that it says it safeguards. Yes, that debate will happen, and when it comes, yes, we will be on different sides, but I would prefer our company to the company that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will keep, and I prefer our argument about Britain's future to his.
Mr. Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Inverness, West) (LD): May I, on behalf of my right hon. and hon. Friends, give a general welcome to the fact that this compromised treaty was agreed and unanimously endorsed by 25 member states and Governments over the course of the weekend? Will the Prime Minister acknowledge that, given the welcome and historic enlargement of Europe and the triumph of democracy, and of socially fair market democracy at that, the model that operated for a Europe of six was simply not applicable to a Europe continuing to develop with a membership of 25?
Does the Prime Minister agree that this constitutional treaty should be seen as a mechanism? It is not a moral crusade, although listening to some of those opposed to it, one could be forgiven for thinking otherwise. Indeed, in the minds of many of us, including those who support Europe, much of the conduct in and around this weekend's summit was a rather poor advert and a persuasive argument that further reform of the way in which Europe goes about its business is long overdue.
Does the Prime Minister agree that the new threats facing Europe, particularly global terrorism and climate change, as well as long-standing problems such as reform of the common agricultural policy, will be given better effect in a collective way as a result of the procedures outlined in the treaty? Will he indicate specifically the prospects under the provisions in the treaty for tackling the CAP—such a long-running source of frustration for successive Governments and this country as a whole?
We surely deceive ourselves by the allure of semi-detachment as a country from Europe or, far more so, of outright isolationism. Therefore, those who are sceptical as well as those who are enthusiastic about Europe should surely welcome a treaty that sets out the competences of the wider European Union and how they can be fairly adjudicated in the interests of both the individual European citizen and member states and Governments who make up the wider Europe.
Will the Prime Minister acknowledge that none of us can deny the growth of Euroscepticism both in this country and throughout the EU? Political elites have run ahead of their domestic public opinion for too long. That is why the referendum has become so essential. The Prime Minister spoke in his statement of the new responsibilities of national Parliaments under the treaty to shape and have a greater input into European legislation. Does he agree that however long it is until the referendum in Britain, from now until such time the Government could make—the Leader of the House is with us today—specific proposals to put more of our handling of European business in this House, centre stage, in order to explain and demonstrate to people the relevance of what Europe is doing and the way in which, as parliamentarians from across the spectrum, we attend to it? Do the Government have any proposals in that respect?
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Finally, on the issue of the referendum, we have had so many false dawns and false starts with this Government, as the Prime Minister well knows. Will he acknowledge today that, having put his signature to the treaty and given that he is having to try to sell it to the British public and that trust in him and his Government is not what it was several years ago, the campaign for the referendum, if it is to be successful, will have to be broadly based, cross-party and involve significant persuasive voices from those outside formal party politics? Will he acknowledge that a referendum campaign that is seen by the public in this country to be spun from No. 10 Downing street would not be won? Although there is scepticism about Europe to be overcome, there is also scepticism about the Government that can undermine the case that needs to be made. The battle is now joined. I hope that, across the political spectrum, we shall be able to make a constructive, pragmatic and principled pro-European case. We look forward to the spectacle of some of the very strange bedfellows who will face us.
The Prime Minister: The reason we have not had a referendum on the single currency is that we do not believe that the moment is right for Britain to join the single currency. We said that it should happen only when the economic conditions are met and, as I understand it, the Liberal Democrats' current position is not that we should join the single currency at this point. It is good to know that we are in agreement on that, as well.
The right hon. Gentleman asked whether we have proposals on how we scrutinise European business. I understand that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has proposals before the Modernisation Committee that will allow us to go into greater detail of some of the European proposals. I think that the House will welcome that.
As for the various other items that the right hon. Gentleman raised, I think that he and I agree on the basic point. I believe that the treaty will allow us to make progress on matters such as economic reform and reform of the common agricultural policy, which are of enormous importance. It is only in the last few years that we have made progress on CAP reform, but it is only as a result of qualified majority voting that we have the slightest chance of succeeding.
Donald Anderson (Swansea, East) (Lab): Is not the sad reality that if my right hon. Friend had returned from Brussels with sackfuls of gold, the Leader of the Opposition would have criticised the quality of the sacks? Will my right hon. Friend confirm that no Government among our 24 partners would seek to renegotiate the constitution in the way that the Opposition suggest, and that the Opposition are therefore seeking either semi-detached status, or to get out altogether?
Now we come to the referendum, and public opinion polls make the position clear: the British public are against the constitution, but honestly admit that they know nothing about it. What does my right hon. Friend propose to do? How will he circumvent a hostile press and, without official propaganda, get a balanced debate on the real European issues facing this country?
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The Prime Minister: That will be up to those who support the campaign in favour of Britain remaining at the centre of Europe and those who are opposed to the treaty. We will have to argue our case, and I have no doubt that it will be a most interesting political battle. I have no doubt, too, that the position taken by the Conservative party—in effect, to use a no vote to renegotiate the existing terms of Britain's membership—would be a terrible mistake, and I think that it will be exposed as such in the course of the campaign. The Conservatives will have to say how one can remain part of the European Union if one unilaterally, as the Leader of the Opposition is suggesting, withdraws from areas of European competence. That is what we now call the lobster thermidor strategy: it might be nice to have it, but it is not on the menu. The fact is that if we tried to do such a thing, we would face either humiliation or withdrawal, which is what I think the right hon. and learned Gentleman wants.
Mr. Robert Jackson (Wantage) (Con): We shall have to study the treaty and its fine print with close attention, without prejudice and with no preconceptions, but it looks to me as though it is a treaty that shifts the institutional balance in the direction of member states and strengthens Britain's voting weight in the Council of Ministers, without making significant concessions to federalism.
In his statement, the Prime Minister did not discuss the suggestion that is said to have been made by the French President: that it would not be possible for a country that is not in the eurozone to supply a President of the European Commission. Does he agree that in a European Union that contains nine member states that are not within the eurozone, that suggestion is outrageous and illegal?
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