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The Minister of State, Department of Health (Ms Rosie Winterton): I thank the Opposition for initiating today's debate because, once again, it has given the Government and Labour Members the chance to highlight our genuine progress in rescuing and rebuilding our national health service after years of neglect and under-investment by the Conservative party. It also gave my right hon. Friend the Minister the opportunity forensically to expose the threadbare nature of the Opposition's policy.

The vast increases that we have made in the numbers of dedicated and committed health service workers, who work so hard to provide front-line services to patients, have been crucial to rebuilding the NHS. Patients show much greater appreciation of the work of those staff than Conservative Members, who take every opportunity to snipe, complain and undermine the morale of health service staff.

Let me provide the facts. There are 19,400 more doctors and 67,500 more nurses working in the NHS than in 1997. An increase of 27 per cent. has occurred in the number of scientific, therapeutic and technical staff since 1997. Medical students have increased by more than 60 per cent. since 1997, and between 1997 and 2003, the number of nurses entering training increased by 53 per cent. The total NHS work force is now at its highest level.

We fully acknowledge that there are some recruitment problems. We have taken several steps to deal with them, and I shall tackle some of the points that hon. Members raised later. First, let us consider what the Opposition say about bureaucracy, red tape and targets. I want especially to examine the comments of the hon. Member for Billericay (Mr. Baron). The number of targets has been slashed. Three years ago, there were 108 targets, now there are 62. That is less than one target for every £1 billion of expenditure in health and social care.

Mr. Baron: The Minister clearly needs to check her figures carefully, because there are at least a couple of hundred targets, as well as a further couple of hundred aims and aspirations. The other point that we are making is that those targets have had a minimal effect
 
22 Jun 2004 : Column 1307
 
despite the increased expenditure, and average waiting times have risen over the last four years. Will she respond to that point?

Ms Winterton: I should like to ask the hon. Gentleman whether he knows any organisation that will be spending £90 billion a year which does not set objectives and targets. In relation to targets, we make no apology for halving the maximum waiting time from 18 months to nine, or for the fact that 19 out of 20 people are now seen, diagnosed and treated in accident and emergency within four hours.

We have decentralised power and funding, and more than 80 per cent. of funding is now going directly to primary care trusts. The suggestion by the hon. Member for Billericay that the NHS is awash with managers is complete rubbish. Since 1997, only 13,000 of 224,000 new NHS staff were managers—5 per cent. of the increase. Furthermore, only 40,000 of the 1.3 million employees—less than 3 per cent.—are managers.

I should now like to deal with some of the points raised by hon. Members. The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Burstow)—who, by the way, did not outline a single Liberal Democrat policy—raised the issue of agency staff. That is something that we need to deal with, and we are taking a number of measures to do so. He talked about NHS Professionals, and about the private sector using agency staff, and those are issues that we can look at in relation to the code of practice for using overseas staff. Indeed, we are already doing so.

The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam also asked about the dental work force review; we shall be publishing that shortly. I have to say to the hon. Member for Southend, West (Mr. Amess) that it was a bit of a cheek for him to talk about training places in dental schools when the Tories closed down two such schools themselves, but I am glad to hear that our money is getting through, and two new dental practitioners are now opening.

I should like to thank the hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Turner) for his kind comments about my visit to his constituency. I am glad to hear that progress is being made there in regard to dentistry, but I will look into why the report to which he referred has been delayed. My hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Hinchliffe) talked about the need for preventive health measures. He also congratulated the Government on their investment in training and family-friendly policies, and mentioned the time that he had spent working in accident and emergency alongside his daughter. He talked about targets, and when I meet people who work in A and E, they say that the four-hour target has led to different ways of working, to the better patient experience that he mentioned, and to a higher quality of care for patients.

My hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Ann Keen) eloquently spoke of her own experience of the dark days of the Tory Government, but pointed out that we needed to increase the number of radiologists. My hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Tony Cunningham) spoke eloquently, too, about recruitment and retention, as well as about the need for medical schools, and made a request for a brand new hospital in his constituency.

The Opposition motion before us today talks about demoralised staff, but what really demoralises staff is being constantly undermined and talked down by
 
22 Jun 2004 : Column 1308
 
Conservative Members. Far from helping to recruit more staff to the NHS, the attitude of the Conservative party acts as a barrier to recruitment. That attitude shaped 18 years of Tory rule, wrecking our health service.

Amazingly, the Conservative party has learned nothing. The Tories want patients to shop around with their patient passport, which allows only those who can afford to pay to jump the queue. The Tory policy is for longer waits, new charges and choice only for the relatively well-off who can afford to pay thousands for their operations, and no amount of expensive Tory relaunches will hide the reality of their policies. They are not in the interests of patients, and not in the interests of staff. They are more extreme than the policies that brought the NHS to the edge of ruin.

Labour brought the NHS into being, and Labour is repairing the damage done by the Conservative party. That is why we are investing the largest ever amount of money in the health service. That is why we have increased the number of people working in the NHS by 224,000. We have done that because we care about the NHS. We want to see a health service of which our dedicated and compassionate NHS staff are proud, and a health service that provides high-quality services for all in our society, and not just for a privileged few. The NHS is improving, and we cannot let the Tories wreck it again. That is why I urge the House to reject the motion and vote for the Government amendment.

Question put, That the original words stand part of the Question:—

The House divided: Ayes 158, Noes 282.

Division No. 200 [7:46 pm


AYES

Allan, Richard
Amess, David
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bacon, Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Baron, John (Billericay)
Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)
Bellingham, Henry
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Bottomley, rh Virginia (SW Surrey)
Brazier, Julian
Breed, Colin
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Burnett, John
Burns, Simon
Burnside, David
Burstow, Paul
Butterfill, Sir John
Calton, Mrs Patsy
Cameron, David
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies (NE Fife)
Carmichael, Alistair
Cash, William
Chope, Christopher
Clappison, James
Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Collins, Tim
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Curry, rh David
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Djanogly, Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Stephen
Duncan, Alan (Rutland)
Duncan, Peter (Galloway)
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Flight, Howard
Flook, Adrian
Forth, rh Eric
Foster, Don (Bath)
Fox, Dr. Liam
Francois, Mark
Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
Garnier, Edward
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)
Gidley, Sandra
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodman, Paul
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Grieve, Dominic
Hague, rh William
Hammond, Philip
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, John (S Holland)
Heald, Oliver
Heath, David
Hendry, Charles
Hermon, Lady
Hoban, Mark (Fareham)
Hogg, rh Douglas
Holmes, Paul
Horam, John (Orpington)
Howard, rh Michael
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Jack, rh Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Keetch, Paul
Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Kirkwood, Sir Archy
Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lamb, Norman
Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, rh Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mackay, rh Andrew
Maclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Malins, Humfrey
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
Moore, Michael
Moss, Malcolm
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, John
Redwood, rh John
Rendel, David
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Roe, Dame Marion
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Sanders, Adrian
Sayeed, Jonathan
Selous, Andrew
Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Streeter, Gary
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Desmond
Swire, Hugo (E Devon)
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Teather, Sarah
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Tonge, Dr. Jenny
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Tyrie, Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Waterson, Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve (Northavon)
Whittingdale, John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, David
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)
Willis, Phil
Winterton, Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. David Ruffley and
Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown


NOES

Adams, Irene (Paisley N)
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)
Atkins, Charlotte
Bailey, Adrian
Baird, Vera
Barnes, Harry
Barron, rh Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, rh Margaret
Bennett, Andrew
Benton, Joe (Bootle)
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Borrow, David
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Browne, Desmond
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Byers, rh Stephen
Cairns, David
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cranston, Ross
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire
Darling, rh Alistair
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
David, Wayne
Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dean, Mrs Janet
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Brian H.
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Drew, David (Stroud)
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Efford, Clive
Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)
Fisher, Mark
Flint, Caroline
Foster, rh Derek
Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Foulkes, rh George
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, David (Midlothian)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Healey, John
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Heyes, David
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David
Hodge, Margaret
Hoon, rh Geoffrey
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hutton, rh John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Eric
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W)
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham)
Keen, Ann (Brentford)
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, David
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Luke, Iain (Dundee E)
Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
MacDonald, Calum
McFall, rh John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Martlew, Eric
Meacher, rh Michael
Merron, Gillian
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moonie, Dr. Lewis
Moran, Margaret
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Elliot
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, George
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Organ, Diana
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Perham, Linda
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris (Gravesham)
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prescott, rh John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Purnell, James
Quin, rh Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)
Rooney, Terry
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Sedgemore, Brian
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shipley, Ms Debra
Short, rh Clare
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Soley, Clive
Steinberg, Gerry
Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Touhig, Don (Islwyn)
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)
Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Walley, Ms Joan
Wareing, Robert N.
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Wood, Mike (Batley)
Woodward, Shaun
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Nick Ainger and
Jim Fitzpatrick


Question accordingly negatived.

 
22 Jun 2004 : Column 1311
 

Question, That the proposed words be there added, put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 31 (Questions on amendments), and agreed to.

Mr. Deputy Speaker forthwith declared the main Question, as amended, to be agreed to.

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