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Clive Efford: I understand why my hon. Friend has written to those authorities that have restrictions on numbers to ask them why that might be the case, and to assess whether it is necessary to continue to operate restrictions, but has the Department also written to those authorities without restrictions to ask whether they felt any need to cap the numbers because problems were being caused in their local area?

Mr. McNulty: My hon. Friend makes an entirely fair point. In the first instance, the answer is no. We have written to those authorities that have restrictions in the context of our response to the OFT report. They will need to reflect on whether they should have restrictions in the context of their local transport plan, and of how the PHV and taxi plan fits into it. It is not for us in the first instance to ask those authorities without restrictions why they do not have them, because that is beyond the purview of our response to the OFT report.

Mrs. Dunwoody: That is a perfectly reasonable attitude to take, as long as the Department is aware that some authorities that had initially deregulated found that the ensuing chaos did not provide a better service—in fact, it resulted in a much worse one—and sought a form of re-regulation. I know that my hon. Friend is as concerned about this issue as I am, and I would ask him to ensure that, when the Department decides which attitude it is going to take, it bears in mind the fact that it is not always simply a question of removing restrictions and saying, "Fine, this is the market and it works better." Sometimes, it works much, much worse.

Mr. McNulty: In the wider context, I would accept that argument. I would expect authorities that sought to put restrictions back in place to justify that decision in the context of how taxis and PHVs fitted into their overall local transport strategy. I would guess—this can only be a guess—that if a PHV and taxi strategy had been at the heart of local transport plans years ago, when deregulation first took place, people might have thought twice about that deregulation, because they would have been able to see how it fitted in with all the other aspects of transport in their area.

As I was saying, we have written to those authorities that have restrictions in place, and they should at least be able to tell us whether there is unmet demand for taxis in their area and whether they have plans to grant new taxi licences accordingly. That has essentially been the legislative position for the last 20 years. We have asked all the local authorities concerned—fairly, I think—to respond by 31 March 2005. We have also made a
 
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commitment to review the position in this regard in three years' time, with a view to taking further action if needed.

Clive Efford: I do not want to labour this point too much, but in the Select Committee's second report—in our response to the OFT's response to our original report—we point out that the modelling suggests that local authorities with entry regulations in place are likely to have lower regulated fares. Bearing that in mind, it would seem logical for authorities without restrictions to consider whether their policy works in the best interest of the consumer.

Mr. McNulty: They may well do, and it is an entirely fair point, but I will not prescribe how each local authority, with or without restriction, should respond to their local circumstances. That is precisely counter to the theme running through our response to the OFT, which is that local people should discuss local circumstances and come to local remedies within the legislative framework, and within the context of the guidance that we will issue. That is the way matters should go forward, for both those with and without restrictions.

Mr. Chope: The Minister said earlier that the issue was not one of justification, and yet the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, in a written statement in March, said that

"the Government believe that local authorities should publish and justify their reasons for restricting the number of taxi licences issued."—[Official Report, 18 March 2004; Vol. 419, c. 34WS.]

Mr. McNulty: Well, that was terribly well spotted by the hon. Gentleman. I meant justified in the context of standing up on a pile of bibles and discussing in public policy terms why it is appropriate that restrictions should be maintained. That was the tone of at least some of the contributions. Of course, they must justify. We will not write to them to ask what their policies are—we know what they are. Justification is to be in the context of the latest unmet demand survey, how taxis and PHVs fit within overall local transport strategies, and in relation to all the reasons that I have suggested. I thought that we were having a serious debate about the OFT report and our response to it, rather than a silly little game of call my bluff. But there we have it.

We have accepted the OFT's recommendations to produce best practice taxi-PHV licensing guidance because we consider that that should help local licensing authorities with a range of licensing issues. There will be full consultation on draft guidance before a final version is published—by the summer, I hope, but we shall wait and see. The guidance will cover most licensing issues, including quantity controls—in the context that I have set out—taxi fare setting, and, as I said earlier, a model local taxi-PHV policy framework for the local transport plan process.

I should stress that this guidance will of course be on a voluntary basis: ultimately, licensing decisions are matters for local authorities and they will remain so, in the current legislative framework—there was at least a nuance in some Members' contributions that somehow we are about to introduce new legislation, which I know was one of the OFT's recommendations. We have no
 
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intention of introducing new legislation, and we feel that what we want to achieve in our response to the OFT, and in terms of maintaining the local dimension, can be done within the existing legislative framework and within the guidance.

I have already mentioned the importance of taxis and PHVs to socially excluded groups, which is a very strong point. I would now like to say something about their importance to disabled people. Taxis are the form of public transport on which many disabled people depend most. Although they generally travel less often than others, for obvious reasons, when they do so, they make proportionately much greater use of taxis. That is why we encourage local licensing authorities to introduce local policies for accessible taxis before we make accessible taxis mandatory. As I announced last October, we are pursuing a policy that would see regulations introduced in many areas between 2010 and 2020. We are currently considering research findings, which will inform those technical regulations. In the meantime, we have already regulated to ensure that taxi drivers and PHV operators and drivers are under a duty to accept assistance dogs travelling with disabled people and to carry those animals free of charge. That said, of course, there is still much that we can do generally as regards taxis and PHVs before 2010.

Enforcement is of major importance, so that the taxi and PHV trades are seen to be for legitimate, licensed drivers and vehicles only. We are determined to crack down nationwide on the touts who jeopardise the legitimate taxi trade and encourage all police forces to give this problem the priority that it deserves. In London, for example, a lot of time and effort is going into combating touting.

Mr. Lepper: I hoped to catch the Minister before he left the issue of disabled taxi customers. Many of my disabled constituents who use taxis feel that one style of vehicle is not necessarily appropriate for all disabled travellers. Many people with disabilities would prefer and find it easier to use a saloon car than, for the sake of argument, a London-style black cab. Does the Department accept that that is so?

Mr. McNulty: We do. That is absolutely right, and the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee and others who have done significant research would say quite freely that although the London hackney-style configuration is very useful, certainly for wheelchair access and a range of other disabilities, it is not the 100 per cent. all-singing, all-dancing, all-purpose vehicle for every single form of disability. Without going into the matter too much, that is why I profoundly disagree with the suggestion of a one-tier taxi. My hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Lepper) is entirely right, not least in that the design of some saloons—those taxis that are more like people carriers—is far more appropriate and convenient for those with impaired mobility but who are not in wheelchairs. The whole array of different saloons that are on offer means that it does not follow that only one model is appropriate.

I want to dwell momentarily on touting. I recently went out on an anti-touting exercise to see for myself the good work being done by the enforcement authorities. I
 
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stress that we must not be complacent about the touting problem, but must continue with initiatives such as the recent decision to make the touting offence recordable, to deter persistent offenders. Such high-profile measures contribute greatly to making passengers feel safe when travelling by taxi and PHV.

To those in London and other urban areas who are tempted after an enjoyable night to jump into the first car that pulls up outside the nightclub, I take this opportunity to say, "Don't do it, because you do not know what you are getting into." Unless that is a properly licensed cab or PHV that has been ordered for that customer, they do not know whether it is licensed, whether the driver has a licence, whether it is insured, whether it is roadworthy or whether or not the person behind the wheel is violent or a sex offender. Many people, not least young women—it frightened me when I saw this when out on the exercise in London—are jumping into the backs of cars that are in one form or another potential death traps. They simply should not do that, however much they are tempted simply to get in the car and go home.

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