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Mr. Mackay : As so often, I agree with a great deal of what the Father of the House said.

May I emphasise, as somebody who at one time was the Government deputy Chief Whip, that I cannot understand why this Government have imposed a three-line Whip on the business before us. This is an immensely sensitive issue and which way each of us should vote is a matter of judgment—often moral judgment. There is no good reason whatever for Government Back Benchers and Front Benchers to be whipped. I commend the Liberal Democrats and my party for allowing a free vote. I put it to those on the Treasury Bench—I notice that there is no Whip present at the moment, but the Minister will no doubt pass on the comments to the Chief Whip—that such behaviour devalues public debate and confidence in the House.

5.15 pm

Many issues are party political. Accordingly, and rightly, we are whipped on them. However, there are many issues that attract great interest from outside the House on which the House is not divided along party lines. I suspect that many of my colleagues oppose the new clause, which I support. That is healthy, right and proper. It would have been far better had the debate been completely open and unwhipped. We have harmed public confidence in our House of Commons, and I deeply regret that. I hope that lessons can be learned for the future and that there will be more free votes on issues that are wholly non-party political. That should have been the case today. I strongly endorse the comments made by the Father of the House today and by the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Pound) last week when he broadcast to the nation in his usual voluble style.

A large number of right hon. and hon. Members wish to speak and I do not wish to delay the House unduly. We are, I hope, united on one point: we all want more organ donors and to reduce the number of people who are suffering while they wait for a donation and who
 
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might lose their lives during that period. I am sure that there is common consent throughout the House on that point. The question is how to get that. I strongly believe that opting out of donation rather than opting into it will increase the number of donations. A minority of people, for ethical and other reasons, do not want to donate their organs. I understand that. Their wishes must be respected, and if Parliament accepts the new clause they will have every right to opt out. Among the great majority of people, however, there is not only a general desire to donate their organs, but a degree of complacency or laziness—they never quite get around to getting an organ donor card. The new clause will put that right.

I conclude by gently chiding the Minister, which I do not like doing as I have a lot of time for her. She is not a new Labour clone who is unable to speak her mind; she comes from a far more distinguished background of Labour Ministers and I respect her for that. Perhaps it was because it was early in the morning, or perhaps it was because I had only just woken up, but I thought that one of the hon. Lady's replies on the "Today" programme was uncharacteristically insensitive. She said that, instead of doing as the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris) proposes, we should encourage doctors and nurses to persuade patients and their relatives in hospital that donation would be a good idea. With the greatest respect, let me point out that that means a doctor or nurse, at a most sensitive time, telling someone, "Look, you're probably going to die. Why not fill in this donor form?" or saying the same to a patient's relatives. That is unbelievably callous. I am not suggesting that the Minister is unbelievably callous, but that would be the result of her suggestion.

The ability to opt out of donating one's organs is a much better way forward. I hope that, even at this late hour, the Government have second thoughts and allow the new clause to go a stage further.

Mr. Frank Dobson (Holborn and St. Pancras) (Lab): As my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) will confirm, I have opposed the opting-out proposition both from the Opposition Front Bench and as a Minister. However, as I have listened to recent discussions, in particular the speech made by the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) the last time that we debated the subject and the speech made by the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris) today, I have become more doubtful. We have to recognise that the present system is not working: it does not produce enough organs to meet the needs of people who would be able to live a decent life if they had an organ transplant. I do not think that we can go on as we are, but nor do I think that simply attaching the opting-out proposition to the Bill is the best way forward.

There are a lot of arguments in both directions. It is ridiculous that we have reached a position in which Ministers assert that the French did something and the proposer of the new clause says that that is not the case. The least that the Government can do is to agree to produce a Green Paper or a discussion document setting out the facts of what has happened in those countries that have introduced an opt-out system. My principal concern about such a system is that there might be a
 
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terrible, scandalous incident that would be provoked into public hysteria by the news media. There would then be a huge falling off in the willingness of people to have their organs used. However, it should not be beyond the wit of this Parliament to come up with a proposition that would, generally speaking, protect against that.

Mr. Dalyell: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. What scuppered things in the late 1960s and early 1970s was a scandalous incident whereby two patients were moved across my right hon. Friend's city of London to die in the right place, to the advantage of a particular renal surgeon. That was devastating for a cause that was otherwise a sensible one.

Mr. Dobson: I accept that. I recall the point that my hon. Friend is making.

It is wrong for the Government to have a whipped vote this evening, but despite that I will probably be voting with them. That is because I would want from the Government Front Bench an undertaking that we shall have a thorough-going examination of the whole issue.

Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe and Nantwich) (Lab): I know that my right hon. Friend is putting forward an informed and sensible proposition. However, does he accept that we have been debating these matters not for 10 years or for 20 years, but for as long as I can remember? Many people are dying now and not in the next 20 years. Does he agree that to ask for a Green Paper is, in House of Commons terms, putting back a very difficult decision that many of us do not want to take but one that we have a special responsibility to take?

Mr. Dobson: I accept all the points that my hon. Friend is making. I accept that it is a difficult decision. There are those on the extreme edges of both arguments who are certain, but there are many in the middle ground who are extremely confused, and who come from both ends of the spectrum. We owe it to them and to the people of this country generally that if we are to change the law, we must get it right. The worst thing that we could do would be to change the law in a way that ended up with a mess. We are not particularly good at making changes to the law on the hoof. We are not too good at making clear and sensible laws at the best of times, but as I have said we are pretty bad at changing things on the hoof. However, there is no reason why, within two or three months, the Government cannot come up with a closely argued proposition, setting out the views of the chief medical officer and others, so that there is thorough-going consideration. Then the Government can introduce a Bill in the next Queen's Speech and get on with things. That is what we should do.

Dr. Richard Taylor (Wyre Forest) (Ind): I am so grateful to the Father of the House, the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell), for mentioning the doctors' dilemma. I was hesitant about putting forward the tremendous problem that practising doctors face at this fearful time. The hon. Gentleman was right to say
 
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that it is the worst time for any family to make a decision. It is the time of maximum grief. The thing that has moved me more than anything as a practising doctor who has had to ask relatives for consent for transplantation at this, the worst time, is that they have, on occasions, said to me afterwards, "Thank you very much. I realise what a terrible job it was for you." That has amazed me. That is the most generous thing anybody could ever say.

I am wholly in favour of the new clause. It would force people to argue among themselves before the moment occurred. At present, relatively few people discuss with their families whether they should fill in an organ donor card, but if there were presumed consent, I believe that many, many more families would talk about it and then, if a disaster happened to a young member of the family, the rest of the family would at least be aware of that member's wishes, and they would expect a doctor to ask at the crucial time. There is no doubt that the new clause would increase the number of organ donations, which are desperately needed by so many people.

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