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Mr. Pound: I thank my hon. Friend for that comment. Individual cases are one of the hardest points in the debate, and they are one of the factors that make objectivity so difficult—I realise that I have mentioned an individual case myself. Sometimes hon. Members examine the actuarial rather than the actual and the theoretical rather than the real. No hon. Member is untouched by experience of someone dying for the want of a transplant, and we have all met people in that situation in our family lives, our surgeries and our communities. Some of us strive for objectivity, and some of us are more successful than others in achieving it.

I have immense sympathy for the constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. McWalter), and I know how the family must have felt. This afternoon, however, we have it in our gift—I use the word "gift" advisedly—to turn back the tide. Imagine sending to the nation the message that we are all our brothers and sisters' keepers, and that we have a mutual responsibility. The tabloids may come up with lurid examples, but, please God, we do not need their permission to legislate.

I ask the Government seriously to consider the new clauses, which have been crafted with great skill and which touch an area of concern right across the country. If they were to reconsider the matter, whether in the form proposed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras or in any other form, they would not only make friends but save lives, and there can be no higher or finer calling than that.

Mr. Dalyell: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I hope that this is in no way taken to be a criticism of, let alone to be offensive to, the Minister or the Government Whip, but from time to time in the House of Commons the tenor of the debate—the cross-party feeling—is that something should be altered and that only a Secretary of State, who is a Cabinet Minister, can make a decision on it. I do not know what he has to do that is more important than to listen to the House of Commons on this matter, but should he not at least be told what is being said, in the light of which he may wish to suggest a relaxation of the Whip?

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): As a very senior and experienced Member of this House, the hon.
 
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Gentleman will be aware that that is not a matter for the Chair. Everybody has seen today's Order Paper, and it is entirely for the Government to decide whom they wish to put forward for the Front Bench.

Mr. Wilshire: It is something of an irony that the speaker who immediately follows that point of order by the Father of the House is an Opposition Whip. I make it clear that I want to state only my own personal views and that although I do not seek to dragoon anybody into voting in any particular way, I hope that my personal arguments might persuade Members on both sides of the House to oppose the new clause. In response to the comments of the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Pound), nothing that I say will be coloured by what the media may say about me or about anybody or anything else.

On Second Reading, I explained why I feel so involved in this matter and have such strong views about it; I therefore see no need to take up the House's time by repeating those remarks. For the purposes of this debate, suffice it to say that when my daughter died all those years ago, I regret that I was not asked and I was relieved that I was not forced to object. Those two points have always driven my views in these matters.

I entirely accept that the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris) is motivated by finding a way to help other people, as is every other Member who has spoken or will speak in this debate. I want them to understand that those of us who take a different view are not against helping others. If there are ways in which we can improve the number of organs that are available, count me in, provided that we do not go down the route, as I see it, of the ends justifying the means.

I accept that improvements are required, and I will support them, but I will not support this particular proposal. I do not believe that it is selfish to put the deceased or the deceased's family ahead of a third party. To suggest that those of us who take that view are being selfish is unkind and unfair, because we do not see it like that. The hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon made the fair point that on some occasions the deceased leaves the express wish that his or her organs may be used, yet in some circumstances the relatives can object. I would have no difficulty in buying into an amendment that stated that a clearly expressed wish of the deceased stands above all else. I can accept that—I am not opposed to all change. However, I find it difficult to accept the hon. Gentleman's suggestion that we are best guessing. As I said, perhaps we would make fewer mistakes under his arrangements, but we would not eliminate all mistakes. If the hon. Gentleman does not like best guessing, the amendment retains it but in a different form.

5.45 pm

The hon. Gentleman justified the new clause by saying that he envisaged many opportunities for people to opt out. If there are to be such opportunities, it follows that there will be many opportunities for people to opt in. I happen to prefer opting in to opting out. He also said that the new clause would take the decision making out of the hands of relatives. Other hon. Members have explained why they believe that that is a kind thing to do, but from my experience, it is not a kind thing to do.
 
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I accept that some people who are faced with the traumatic experience of someone who is dear to them dying will find it almost impossible to cope with such a request. It would genuinely add to their grief. However, others—I have spoken to some over the years—somehow found it helpful in a moment of appalling grief when someone said, in the middle of catastrophe, "Here is something that you could consider doing that would perhaps make the grief more bearable." Although some people would find the request almost impossible to handle, others would find it helpful to be asked.

I am deeply sorry that nobody asked me at the time. However, I think that I know myself well enough to say that if any organs had been removed from my daughter and I could have had the opportunity to object but the matter was taken out of my hands, I would have been outraged for the rest of my life. I appreciate that children are exempt and I shall comment on that shortly.

Let me consider the text of the new clause because some points might help colleagues to form a view. Subsection (1) of new clause 1 refers to

"part of a body of an adult lying in a hospital".

I appreciate that, when I explained what happened to me, I was referring to a 12-year-old daughter. Some debate took place about whether an adult should be considered to be 16 or 18. However, I sense that those who support the new clause hold that it is wrong, insensitive or somehow not right to include children in it, and we now have a definition of children. I gently say to the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon that everyone is somebody's child. If it is wrong to include a child who is under 18, is it not also wrong to include a 40-year-old child when a mother or father who are still alive could have the same strong views about their child? The child argument does not get us very far.

Dr. Evan Harris: I did not want to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but there is a distinction. Law—including the measure—recognises that autonomy and competence to consent come with adulthood. Some pragmatism has been applied in that the measure does not allow a Gillick-competent child to benefit—if I may use that word, given that there would be no benefit to that child—from presumed consent because a line is clearly drawn at the age of 16. Although everyone is someone's child, I urge the hon. Gentleman to consider the recipients of transplants and their relatives. They would not want to die or their relatives to die because of difficulties caused by someone who did not want the organs of their adult child to be removed even if that child did.

Mr. Wilshire: Of course I understand what the hon. Gentleman is saying and I appreciate that, when dealing with legislation we must, on occasions, take a legalistic view of it. However, the significance of the debate about whether this should be a free vote or a whipped vote is that it flags up the fact that we are in the territory of personal, subjective beliefs and convictions, rather than that of what the lawyers might say. I understand that there have to be legal definitions in this regard, and I am grateful for the fact that the age has now been set at 18, but if we are going to invoke the concept of the child and its parents, I must emphasise that I believe that we are all somebody's child. That is all that I am saying, and it is a subjective point which the hon. Gentleman may or may not set much store by.
 
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New clause 1(2)(e) is at the heart of this proposal, in that it states that unless someone has registered an objection, things can go ahead. I would support the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon in this if he were to say that this provision involved a required request rather than presumed consent. If we were being asked to legislate that people must be asked, I would be with him. I understand the point made by the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Dr. Taylor). It is incredibly difficult to approach people at the moment of a bereavement, and I am not sure that it is any easier to say "Please may we?" than "Do you mind if we do?" I would have thought that both were equally difficult. All that I can say is that it would sound so much kinder to be asked, "Do you mind?" rather than, "Do you object?" It would be so much more considerate of the views of the bereaved to ask whether they minded, rather than asking whether they wanted to object. Someone could end up in a much worse position for the rest of their life if they had to say, "I'm against this", as opposed to being able to say, "I'd rather not say yes at the moment." To object could leave a scar, whereas saying yes or no to the question "May we?" might not do so.

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