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Mr. Graham Stringer (Manchester, Blackley) (Lab):
May I first say how much I have enjoyed the consultation meetings that the Government have carried out in the north-west, where their objective is to give information? I enjoyed debating with my right hon. Friend the Minister for Local and Regional Government in front of the St. Helen's chamber of commerce. As ever, he was courteous and knowledgeable, and we had a good debate. We argued and disagreed, and my right hon. Friend put his points forcefully, as he regularly does, but that was not an information-giving session. Similarly, it was not an information session when the Deputy Prime Minister
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came to Manchester and used the opportunity to show his knowledge of expletives in response to my view. The Deputy Prime Minister was being passionate, as he always is, and that was clearly not a cool, information-giving session.
I have listened carefully to the debate. I recall a great deal about the 1980s, when I suppose my party went a little mad and the electorate noticed and did not vote for us very much. When I listen to this debate, I think that the party has gone a little mad again, but that no one has really noticed. When I sit down and coolly analyse what we are offering the people of the north-west, the north-east and Yorkshire and Humber, I realise that we are telling them, "Yes, you can pay more council tax. You will get no more money—no more resources will be reallocated from the centre, but you will have the costs of running a new regional assembly and the costs of a local government reorganisation. You might even, if you are foolish enough to vote for a regional assembly, have a body that the Government will not cap if it decides to impose unlimited council tax." The White Paper says explicitly that the Government are considering removing their own right to cap regional assemblies.
That is a particularly unattractive proposal to put to the people, and it is certainly not regional government. My right hon. Friend the Minister made a mistake when he talked about regional government. What is on offer is regional assemblies. The Government offices for the north-west and the other Government offices will carry on delivering their business, and the regional assemblies will have no control over them. There will not be regional policy. Virtually every penny that will be spent by the elected regional assemblies will have come, via some path such as a quango or a more direct route, from local government.
I never thought that I would sit here with Conservative Members, some of whom were part of the Government who took those resources and powers from local government to put them elsewhere, and listen to my own Government saying that they will not give those powers and resources back to local government but will give them to a regional assembly.
Deep in the heart of this debate there is a lack of a real concept of what local democracy and local government are about. Regional assemblies certainly do not constitute an improvement in democracy. People elected to such assemblies in the north-west will represent a third of a million people—in some cases, nearly 7 million people—and replace elected councillors.
What would a real regional policy look like? A real regional policy requires active discrimination and intervention in favour of those regions that have suffered from economic and social disparities. I do not have time to go through the figures on income, death and morbidity, which are far worse in the regions than in London and the south-east, but to deal with such issues we need to intervene and to transfer resources. Yet nothing in this package transfers resources to the north-west or elsewhere. In fact—Opposition Members will not agree with this—our national policy is really a regional policy for the south-east. On looking at the real causes of regional disparities, one finds that huge quantities of money are being spent in the south-east disproportionately on transport and cultural issues.
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In the north-east, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead, East and Washington, West (Joyce Quin) talked about, 6p is spent per capita on cultural services such as museums and art galleries, yet the figure for London is £10 per head. Is that fair? Could it possibly be one reason why we have the economic and social disparities that these proposals will do nothing to address?
We need to put civil servants and resources into the regions. I welcome the BBC's decision, announced today, to put some of its resources into Manchester and the regions, but why has it taken so long? The BBC has introduced two new television channels and three new radio stations, but now, because it is under pressure as a result of a number of mistakes, and because it wants to review the licence fee, it is saying, "Yes, we remember the regions and we will look to provide some support."
Andy Burnham: I agree with my hon. Friend's analysis of regional disparities, but surely a no vote in a referendum in the north-west would send the message that we are happy with the status quo and with London domination of our public life and resource allocation. Even if the proposal is not everything, as the Liberal Democrats are suggesting, surely it is better to accept it and build on it.
Mr. Stringer: People would conclude from a no vote that we had rejected a proposal that offers no improvement on what is currently on offer; in fact, it offers something worse. The pressure that Members can bring to bear on various issues would in fact be diminished if we had a regional assembly. The case for more money would not be made any better. The Government would say, "We've not given you any more money and we've given you very few powers, but you can get on with things now." The arguments that we have been advancing will be dismissed and we will be told, "Go to your regional assembly and deal with such matters there." That is my worry.
The other argument, following the line of thought of my hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), is that a regional assembly will provide one powerful voice that the Government will listen to. I do not accept that either, for one simple reason. My right hon. Friend the Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, the Prime Minister and other Front Benchers know the various facts and figures, but there is nothing new here. For whatever reason, the spatial distribution of expenditure as determined by the Government is staying as it is. They would learn nothing new as a result of having a regional assembly. As has been suggested, it is much more likely that there will be a greater disarray of voices, rather than one voice.
Let us consider what will happen if the regional assembly's policy disagrees with that of Liverpool, Blackburn or Manchester. Is the leader of Liverpool city council—currently a Liberal Democrat—going to say, "We think that your planning policies for Liverpool are right"? Of course not. They will go to the Government with a completely different story, and I do not blame them. The same is true for Manchester. An extra voice is created and local government resources are centralised. It makes it easier for the Government to say
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that the regional assembly says one thing, Chester says another, somewhere else yet another—so the Government will carry on doing what they want. I do not accept the arguments in favour, as my hon. Friend the Member for Leigh understands.
I shall conclude, because I know that other hon. Members want to contribute. When the figures on how much money goes into London and how much into the regions are discussed, it is sometimes said that London is subsidising the rest of the country. I find that offensive. It would be good for London if less were spent on things that could be done elsewhere in the country. Every time we look for a new amelioration—affordable housing, London weighting and so forth—we are subsidising congestion. It makes life in London more difficult and life in the country more difficult. What we need is a fairer balance that would enable London to do what it is best at—it is a great world city, a financial capital of Europe and has an enormous amount going for it—but that would even out the money to help the regions. That would be better both for London and the regions. I do not believe that what is on offer deals with the fundamental problems of the regions.
Joyce Quin: I do not disagree with my hon. Friend when he makes the case for central Government to take regional issues seriously and take regional needs into account in the allocation of spending, but it is not an either/or issue. Surely it is possible to have an elected regional assembly while also having an active national regional policy adopted by the central Government.
Mr. Stringer: That brings me back to my earlier point about whether having a regional assembly amounts to a step forward. I know that many Government Members genuinely believe that it is a step forward, but I believe that it is more likely to prove a step backwards by cementing into place unjust spending patterns. That is why I have come to the conclusions that I have outlined.
I often see my hon. Friends asking for extra support, but it is difficult to get the Government to respond to regional issues. Let us consider the Government response to the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister: Housing, Planning and Local Government Committee report on regional disparities. Every time a suggestion was made, the Government basically said that they had national priorities rather than regional ones.
I often raise airspace policies with the Government. We know that the skies over London are congested and that there is capacity in regional airports, so we could open up the skies and more aeroplanes could use those airports. That does not happen because of vested interests in the south-east, which is where civil servants and the headquarters of BAA are based. At the present time, Pakistan International Airlines could run services from Pakistan via Manchester to New York, but it is prevented from operating that flight by the vested interests of the south-east.
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