Mr. Tyrie:
As my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) said, my amendment is
7 Jul 2004 : Column 856
modest. The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) was less charitable, and called it light. The amendment is short, but its clarity seems to have elicited some information from the Government. I shall come to that in a moment. The hon. Gentleman did not offer a clear alternative, only general suggestions for a more rigorous approach.
Mr. Salmond:
The clear alternative is for the Government to say how much of a windfall they expect. I am concerned by what the Economic Secretary said about the effect being neutral and I presume that that is based on an assumption of lower economic growth. If so, he should tell us how much of a direct windfall the Government expect and the size of the fall in economic growth that they now forecast. The Economic Secretary's message was very negative.
Mr. Tyrie:
The hon. Gentleman and I seem to be working together more closely than a moment ago.
Mr. Salmond
indicated dissent.
Mr. Tyrie:
I do not want to wreck his party's prospects, but I agree with what the hon. Gentleman just said. It would be extremely helpful if the Government made a clear statement, perhaps in a letter, of the overall effect of oil price rises on the public finances. I should be grateful if the Economic Secretary would publish the detailed calculations on which his remarks were based.
John Healey:
I made it clear in my remarks that our main assumptions are audited by the NAO. We publish them in the pre-Budget report and the Budget. That is the time scale to which we work and when the information is made available. A broadly neutral effect is more likely than the large windfall that Opposition Members seem to think will benefit the British economy.
Mr. Tyrie:
The Economic Secretary has alluded to some publications with which I am familiar, but I would not feel able easily to draw the same conclusions. I do not want to linger on this point, but I hope that he will help us by sending a letter pointing out where we can find numbers that are clear and unambiguous. The point at issue is valuable, and the House and the country should have deeper knowledge of it.
The hon. Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable) delivered a typically elegant and interesting speech. He is always thoughtful, but today he seemed almost to be pointing in two directions at once. [Interruption.] It is rare for Liberal Democrat Members to do that, but occasionally it can happen inadvertently. Initially, he seemed to support the principle behind the amendment, even if he did not accept the detail. Those were more or less the words that he used, but almost in the same breath he quoted figures that implied that motorists are undertaxed and that they should pay more in tax.
Dr. Cable
indicated assent.
Mr. Tyrie:
The hon. Gentleman is nodding in agreement. Motorists should therefore know that the Liberal Democrat party's policy is to increase taxation
7 Jul 2004 : Column 857
and to impose higher levels of duty on diesel and motor spirit. That message will not be lost on people in the months ahead.
The Economic Secretary said that my amendment was a short-term measure and could not be supported. If that is so, why have the Government briefed the press about their willingness to introduce just such a short-term measureto suspend the duty rise for six months? Why are they doing exactly what they say should not be done? They are considering a measure along the lines of the amendment, or at least they are trying to get the best publicity that they can for doing so.
The Economic Secretary called the amendment hokey-cokey. I am not sure what he meant, but the only hokey-cokey activity going on here has been the Government's briefing of the press, when they should have explained their policy to the House. We still do not know exactly what their policy is.
I come back to my central point and give the Economic Secretary one last opportunity. Will the Government give us a clear commitment that, if prices rise and stay at the level that they were when the Chancellor gave his friendly press briefings, they will set aside the September increase in fuel duty? Will they give us a clear answer to that question? If they will not, we will be forced to divide the House on the issue.
Question put, That the amendment be made:
The House divided: Ayes 109, Noes 250.
Division No. 218
[1:30 pm
AYES
Amess, David
Ancram, rh Michael
Arbuthnot, rh James
Atkinson, David
(Bour'mth E)
Bacon, Richard
Baron, John
(Billericay)
Beggs, Roy
(E Antrim)
Beresford, Sir Paul
Bottomley, Peter
(Worthing W)
Brady, Graham
Brazier, Julian
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Cameron, David
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney
(Chipping Barnet)
Chope, Christopher
Clappison, James
Conway, Derek
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Curry, rh David
Davis, rh David
(Haltemprice & Howden)
Donaldson, Jeffrey M.
Duncan, Alan
(Rutland)
Evans, Nigel
Ewing, Annabelle
Fallon, Michael
Field, Mark
(Cities of London & Westminster)
Flight, Howard
Flook, Adrian
Forth, rh Eric
Gibb, Nick
(Bognor Regis)
Goodman, Paul
Greenway, John
Gummer, rh John
Hague, rh William
Hammond, Philip
Hawkins, Nick
Hayes, John
(S Holland)
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, rh David
Hendry, Charles
Hermon, Lady
Horam, John
(Orpington)
Howarth, Gerald
(Aldershot)
Jackson, Robert
(Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard
Key, Robert
(Salisbury)
Knight, rh Greg
(E Yorkshire)
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, rh Oliver
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Lilley, rh Peter
Loughton, Tim
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, Patrick
Malins, Humfrey
Maples, John
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
May, Mrs Theresa
Mercer, Patrick
Mitchell, Andrew
(Sutton Coldfield)
Moss, Malcolm
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Norman, Archie
O'Brien, Stephen
(Eddisbury)
Osborne, George
(Tatton)
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paterson, Owen
Prisk, Mark
(Hertford)
Randall, John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Angus
(Moray)
Ruffley, David
Salmond, Alex
Sayeed, Jonathan
Selous, Andrew
Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Richard
Simpson, Keith
(M-Norfolk)
Smyth, Rev. Martin
(Belfast S)
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spink, Bob
(Castle Point)
Spring, Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Streeter, Gary
Swayne, Desmond
Swire, Hugo
(E Devon)
Taylor, John
(Solihull)
Taylor, Dr. Richard
(Wyre F)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Tredinnick, David
Trimble, rh David
Turner, Andrew
(Isle of Wight)
Tyrie, Andrew
Walter, Robert
Waterson, Nigel
Weir, Michael
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
(Macclesfield)
Wishart, Pete
Tellers for the Ayes:
Gregory Barker and
Mr. Peter Atkinson
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Adams, Irene
(Paisley N)
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Bob
(Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Anderson, rh Donald
(Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet
(Rossendale & Darwen)
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Baird, Vera
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Battle, John
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Bennett, Andrew
Benton, Joe
(Bootle)
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Blackman, Liz
Blair, rh Tony
Blizzard, Bob
Borrow, David
Bradley, rh Keith
(Withington)
Bradley, Peter
(The Wrekin)
Brennan, Kevin
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burgon, Colin
Byers, rh Stephen
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mrs Anne
(C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie
(Blyth V)
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Chapman, Ben
(Wirral S)
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Mrs Helen
(Peterborough)
Clark, Dr. Lynda
(Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul
(Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Tom
(Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clarke, Tony
(Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann
(Cynon V)
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Colman, Tony
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cryer, John
(Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Jim
(Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony
(Workington)
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire
Darling, rh Alistair
Davey, Valerie
(Bristol W)
Davies, rh Denzil
(Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint
(Croydon C)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
(Heywood)
Dobson, rh Frank
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim
(Lewisham W)
Drew, David
(Stroud)
Drown, Ms Julia
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela
(Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria
(L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ennis, Jeff
(Barnsley E)
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Frank
(Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul
(Newport W)
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Michael Jabez
(Hastings & Rye)
Foulkes, rh George
Gapes, Mike
(Ilford S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Goggins, Paul
Griffiths, Jane
(Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel
(Edinburgh S)
Grogan, John
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike
(Weaver Vale)
Hamilton, David
(Midlothian)
Hamilton, Fabian
(Leeds NE)
Hanson, David
Havard, Dai
(Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Healey, John
Henderson, Doug
(Newcastle N)
Hendrick, Mark
Hesford, Stephen
Heyes, David
Hinchliffe, David
Hoey, Kate
(Vauxhall)
Hood, Jimmy
(Clydesdale)
Hoon, rh Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
(Corby)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, George
(Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Hughes, Beverley
(Stretford & Urmston)
Hughes, Kevin
(Doncaster N)
Hutton, rh John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Eric
Jackson, Glenda
(Hampstead & Highgate)
Jackson, Helen
(Hillsborough)
Johnson, Miss Melanie
(Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Jon Owen
(Cardiff C)
Jones, Kevan
(N Durham)
Jones, Lynne
(Selly Oak)
Jowell, rh Tessa
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan
(Feltham)
Keen, Ann
(Brentford)
Kelly, Ruth
(Bolton W)
Kennedy, Jane
(Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
King, Andy
(Rugby)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, David
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom
(High Peak)
Lewis, Terry
(Worsley)
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
(Manchester C)
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian
(Wrexham)
Luke, Iain
(Dundee E)
Lyons, John
(Strathkelvin)
McCafferty, Chris
McDonnell, John
MacDougall, John
McFall, rh John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNamara, Kevin
McWalter, Tony
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mandelson, rh Peter
Marris, Rob
(Wolverh'ton SW)
Marsden, Gordon
(Blackpool S)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Martlew, Eric
Meale, Alan
(Mansfield)
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Alan
Miliband, David
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moran, Margaret
Morgan, Julie
Mountford, Kali
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Jim
(Eastwood)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
O'Brien, Bill
(Normanton)
O'Hara, Edward
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Osborne, Sandra
(Ayr)
Owen, Albert
Perham, Linda
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter
(Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris
(Gravesham)
Pope, Greg
(Hyndburn)
Pound, Stephen
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Purnell, James
Quinn, Lawrie
Robertson, John
(Glasgow Anniesland)
Ruane, Chris
Russell, Ms Christine
(City of Chester)
Ryan, Joan
(Enfield N)
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheerman, Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, rh Andrew
(Oxford E)
Smith, Geraldine
(Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui
(Redditch)
Smith, Llew
(Blaenau Gwent)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Helen
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David
(Inverness E & Lochaber)
Stewart, Ian
(Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Dari
(Stockton S)
Thomas, Gareth
(Clwyd W)
Todd, Mark
(S Derbyshire)
Touhig, Don
(Islwyn)
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis
(Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr. Desmond
(Brighton Kemptown)
Turner, Neil
(Wigan)
Tynan, Bill
(Hamilton S)
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Robert N.
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Alan
(Swansea W)
Williams, Betty
(Conwy)
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Wood, Mike
(Batley)
Woodward, Shaun
Wright, Anthony D.
(Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, Tony
(Cannock)
Tellers for the Noes:
Derek Twigg and
Gillian Merron
Question accordingly negatived.
7 Jul 2004 : Column 860
Mr. Peter Kilfoyle (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab):
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. When the last vote was taken, a number of right hon. and hon. Members were in the Marquee. No bell rang down there. May I ask you to ensure that the bells are put into effect? It is obviously rather disconcerting to hear that there is a vote when the information on that vote does not extend throughout the Palace.