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Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman's time is up.
2.59 pm
Mr. Mark Oaten (Winchester) (LD): I join the Home Secretary and shadow Home Secretary in thanking the Intelligence and Security Committee for its work. It is a shame that the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Barron) had to be cut off, given his able job in representing the Chairman. We entirely understand the reasons for her absence—she has a happy occasion to attend. I pass on the apologies for absence of my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith), who is also a member of the Committee, and whose daughter is having a baby today.
I want to put on record the thanks of Liberal Democrat Members for the wonderful work of our intelligence committees. The intelligence services in this country carry out marvellous work, much of which we never hear about. It is an incredible achievement and the report and today's debate afford an opportunity to put that firmly on the record.
We all think back to where we were on 11 September. My mind was racing then about the consequences of those events. I suspect that, like me, many hon. Members were pretty sure that we would face an attack in this country in the ensuing period. Although terrible events have occurred in Madrid, Istanbul, Bali and other places, it is to the credit of those who work in our intelligence services that, so far, we have avoided such an attack in this country. That is a remarkable achievement. If I had been asked to predict events after 11 September, I would not have believed it possible to avoid some sort of atrocity in this country for such a long time.
The intelligence services have had to adjust to a changing world, which has moved from one of difficulties and problems between superpowers to that of super-terrorists. That means complex changes, which have required the intelligence services to adapt. They require much more resources and their activities have become more important than ever—that is difficult for them. Our ability to scrutinise their activities becomes correspondingly more important as their actions are much more in the public domain. I therefore welcome the debate and believe that we should have an annual occasion to examine their work.
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Not only the intelligence services but the politicians have had to adapt to a changing world. The Home Secretary was right to reflect on those difficulties and tensions when he clearly set out the tension that he feels as Home Secretary in bearing the burden of responsibility for all of us in ensuring that he and the Government do everything possible to protect our security. There is tension between doing that and ensuring that we do not abandon the freedoms that we are trying to protect.
I know that the Home Secretary becomes enormously irritated with my colleagues and me. I almost choked on my yoghurt—not muesli—when listening to "Today" and heard myself described as part of the Libertariat—[Hon. Members: "Liberati."] It was "Liberati". [Interruption.] I want to put it on the record that I do not eat muesli; I do not come from Hampstead—I was born in Watford; I started wearing sandals only when I saw David Beckham doing it, and I note with interest that, out of the three Home Affairs spokesmen, the only one with a beard is the Home Secretary. That may suggest that there is a Liberal desperately trying to get out.
The more serious point is that whatever one's values when taking on the Home Secretary's job, I imagine that the burden of responsibility and the information to which one is made party creates a tension about the direction that one should take. When Liberal Democrats are critical, I hope that the Home Secretary acknowledges that we understand his problems and difficulties and that it is our job in opposition to probe, test and ensure that we are doing what we can to protect values, which are perhaps sometimes not ideal in our changing world.
Let me consider the report, which begins by dealing with resources. I acknowledge the need for increased resources, but perhaps the Home Secretary or the Foreign Secretary could comment on the dilemma between putting more resources into intelligence services and the knock-on effects on our police. I was greatly struck by the conversations that I have held with members of the Metropolitan police. They said that although they obviously welcomed all the intelligence that they received, the more they get, the more demand it creates for individual police officers to follow it up, participate in raids and deal with the consequences. It is therefore not simply a case of ensuring that we put extra resources into the intelligence services. They must be matched by extra resources for the affected police authorities and forces so that they can conduct the necessary activity on the ground.
I congratulate the Home Secretary on his discussions with the Chancellor. Press reports and the Chancellor's comments suggest that the Home Secretary has successfully secured considerable resources. That is welcome and appropriate in such times. The Home Secretary mentioned the disparity in terms of the work in counter-espionage and the fall in the percentage figure of the budget devoted to it. Does he believe that, although there is extra money available to the Home Department, next week's spending review announcement will also mean a slight increase in that specific percentage? Will the percentage as well as the money improve?
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The shadow Home Secretary pointed out that it is ridiculous that page 11 of the report provides a breakdown and a bar chart that examines the resources for the Secret Intelligence Service, the security services and GCHQ, but displays only asterisks from 2001 to 2005. It is hard to make a case for not revealing the amount of resources that goes to the individual services. I cannot understand the security risk involved in that. The advantages in parliamentary scrutiny outweigh the dangers and risks of including those figures.
Nearly all the consequences of extra resources involve people. Recruiting is clearly a difficult and complex process. For example, the Committee mentions the difficulty in trying to obtain a good ethnic balance in recruiting. That is important not only in its own right but especially because of the types and style of work that we expect our intelligence services to undertake, their understanding with specific communities, and their ability to communicate and gain the confidence of some communities. I hope that the Home Secretary will pick up on the Committee's comments and ascertain whether we can do much more to get a good ethnic mix.
Some concerns have been expressed to me about the National Criminal Intelligence Service and what happens when it transfers to the serious organised crime agency. I get a sense from people who are connected with NCIS that they are worried that the organisation is suffering from a sort of brain drain and that some of the more senior individuals who have been seconded from police forces are now starting to be taken back into them. That is happening partly because of financial pressure in NCIS to reduce the budget and partly because of the process of moving towards SOCA. It would be worrying if the transfer, which will not happen for 18 months, had an impact on the effectiveness of NCIS as individuals leave before the new agency is established. I hope that those who respond to the debate will tackle that and confirm that the Committee will be able to examine the work of SOCA as well as that of NCIS and that that organisation will be scrutinised properly. The Home Secretary is nodding and that is welcome confirmation.
The shadow Home Secretary made some strong points about Iraq. Perhaps they would have been more powerful if they had been made during the debate on Iraq rather than after the event. He hoped that the Butler inquiry might be able to answer some of the questions about the interrelationship between the intelligence services and Ministers, but I do not believe that it can provide those answers. That is precisely why Liberal Democrat Members decided not to take part in the process. Somewhat belatedly, Conservative Members made the same decision. I fear that, when the Butler report is published next week, we will all be asking for Butler mark 2 because it will pose a set of questions about Ministers' interpretation of information. Everybody will be dashing around studios demanding a further inquiry to ascertain how Ministers established that information. The Government could have settled this issue once and for all by wrapping those two issues up at the same time.
I am grateful to the Home Secretary for confirming that he still has an open mind on the issue of intercept communications. Like the shadow Home Secretary, we have moved on this issue. Indeed, I think that all three
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parties have done so. I have definitely come to the conclusion that it would be better to try to produce proper evidence against people rather than holding them without trial, so the sooner we can complete and see the evidence from that review, the better.
I was surprised that the Home Secretary did not give us any indication of the progress, if any, made at his summit in Sheffield this week with his counterparts from mainland Europe. I would have been interested to hear what progress had been made on shared intelligence and, particularly, on issues such as DNA and biometrics. We look forward to receiving more information about the progress that is being made on working with our European counterparts in those areas.
I do not want to drag up the issue of identity cards now but, while we would be very much in favour of shared intelligence and ensuring that such information was passed around, and while the idea of biometric data on passports is worth looking at in principle, I want to put on record again my concern that the Government are implying that biometrics and ID cards would have a role to play in tackling terrorism. I can seem them having a role if the cards were compulsory, or perhaps in regard to the ability of certain individuals to claim benefits, but I remain unconvinced—particularly after spending a couple of days in Madrid last week talking to some of the people involved in these matters—that an ID or biometric card system would create a serious means of preventing terrorism in this country.
I have one final question, which relates to page 23 of the report, on which the Committee raises concerns about the way in which some of the interviews of detainees took place. The wording is not clear to me, however. The report looked at the way in which detainees in Afghanistan, Iraq or Guantanamo Bay had been interviewed, and the response begins by saying:
"Interviews of detainees conducted or observed by UK intelligence personnel have"—
and then goes on to list some concerns about the way in which those interviews had taken place. It is not clear to me whether this section confirms that interviews were conducted by UK intelligence personnel in a way that would go against the Geneva conventions. The wording is not clear, and it is important that we receive clarification on that point.
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