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Mr. O'Neill: I agree with the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr. Robertson) that such a debate should take place in Government time. We hold several debates on, for example, the armed services. The issue that we are considering is also a matter of life and death. Perhaps it is not as dramatic as some other subjects but it is as important. The Government new clause constitutes a good compromise.
When the relevant amendment came from the Lords, I thought that there was a wee bit of mischief making and opportunism, but that is the function of the Opposition and we cannot complain about it. However, it was always acknowledged that, regardless of who owns oil, gas and electricity utilities and generating capacities, if the lights go out, the Government get the blame. A more formal structure is therefore welcome. We used to have documents, such as the brown book on the North sea, which continue to be published; but something that is more pointed and better focused will assist.
We must try to hold a more mature and better informed debate on issues such as security of supply. We wasted a lot of time considering whether the American experience was relevant and whether that on the east coast or the west coast applied more to the British position. We also examined whether it was appropriate to take account of what happened in Italy or, indeed, in London and Birmingham. When the Select Committee considered the matter, it became clear that events in London and, to a lesser extent, Birmingham were probably accidental. However, they were wake-up calls that conveyed a warning that we cannot afford to be complacent about the organisation of maintenance—that was the difficulty in London—or taking off supply specific power stations that have not been called in for many years. That was the case with the Lotts Road facility. [Interruption.] We had a problem with a fly, but I think it has been sent away.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton, South (Mr. Tynan) made the point that margins should be considered seriously because they are important. There has been a debate about whether some sort of payment should be made to companies for keeping plant available. The increase in electricity prices, at least in the short term, may have resolved that matter, because it is now worth a company's while to keep its reserve stations ticking over so that they could be used.
More attention should be paid to gas supply and storage. We have long established a number of days' supply of oil and, in the past, we had coal reserves in power stations. The demise of the coal industry has meant that such precautions no longer form part of the physical landscape of Britain. The power stations that I pass have nothing like the supplies of coal that they used to hold. Before long, we must not only pay more attention to the provision of reservoirs and undersea salt caves, which will doubtless be used for storing gas, but we should have proper accounting of the number of days' supply, especially as dependence on gas increases.
In Britain, we have been incredibly fortunate for many years in being self-sufficient in energy. In transport, we have had a bit of elbow room for essential services. However, we could find ourselves in the
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position of being no different from many other countries in our dependence on imported gas, while having nothing like the provision for emergencies that they have had to adopt as a matter of course over a number of years. That is an area of adjustment that we have not fully addressed. We are getting supplies through the deal that was struck with the Norwegians last year, in which my right hon. Friend the Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) played an important role, but we need to ensure that if there are to be interruptions, there will still be a sufficiency of supply necessary to deal with them.
It has been pointed out that pipelines and interconnections are outwith British shores. They are significant, however, and I should like to think that they would be included in the proposed annual report. My hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton, South mentioned the question of margins, but we also need to address the issue of the predicted lifetime of a number of the major generating facilities, so that we can see which will be coming off supply and which will be remaining. That would be of assistance to our debate. It would also strengthen the hand of Ministers wishing to encourage investment programmes in particular ways or areas, seeking to persuade the Chancellor that a more sympathetic fiscal regime might be necessary, or assisting a regulator to change the nature of pricing to make it more attractive to undertake investment of this kind over a period of years.
The new clause is an extremely worthwhile attempt by the Government to bridge the gap that existed between themselves and the Opposition parties in the Lords. It is essential, however, that proper weight be given to the request that the debate on the annual report should be held in Government time. It will involve the Government's report and the Government will be held to account here. It is therefore appropriate that they should make the time available to the House for the debate. I appreciate that the Minister might have difficulty in doing that, but he ought to recognise that the significance of this report should be no less than that of a Defence White Paper, for which we offer a number of days of parliamentary time. I realise that the Whips' Office and the Leader of the House are not always the most flexible institutions in this place. I have never found them, after years of Labour and Conservative Governments, to be very flexible or enlightened, but perhaps the strength of this argument, and of the advocacy of my hon. Friend the Minister, is such that he will be able to ensure that those sometimes immovable objects can be shifted a little so that time can be made available for an increasingly important debate that would attract attention from both sides of the House.
Mr. Stunell:
The Liberal Democrats will support new clause 5. I certainly do not recognise the description of the hon. Member for Ochil (Mr. O'Neill) of the provisions as mischief-making by the Lords. It is a fundamental part of the Bill that some attempt should be made to set out a strategy for this country's energy supply, and I believe that such an attempt has been made, with the support of Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members in the other place. I want to acknowledge my opposite number at the other end of the building, Lord Ezra, who worked exceptionally hard on this and other aspects of the Bill.
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I am very pleased that the Government have agreed that a modified version of those proposals should go into the Bill and that they have produced this new clause. They have understood that the Secretary of State would have an inescapable obligation to give an account of themselves and their Government, if the moment came when the lights went out. For them to have a rain check every year, with an annual report coming to the House, is therefore an important way of guarding against that eventuality and of protecting themselves against that nasty, unpleasant surprise, should it happen.
I hope that the Minister will pick up the case made by the hon. Member for Milton Keynes, North-East (Brian White) who, as so often in these energy debates, made a very useful point. He said that it is not just a question of pushing stuff into the system, but of sucking stuff out of it. It is one thing to control the taps that run into the bath, but we must also make sure that the plug is in the bath and that we do not waste the energy that we have. I hope that he will acknowledge that we need to consider efficiency of use and energy conservation as part of that annual reporting and planning process. Perhaps he will reflect on the fact that, while those two important functions are split between two different Departments, there is an inherent risk of things falling through the gaps. This process could be a way of making sure that that gap is closed and that Government policies are coherent and joined together.
The Minister had a number of things to say about defining what "long-term" and "short-term" meant. I was interested to hear what he said, not least because I had alerted him to the fact that I would be on my guard to see that "long-term" covered the full range of options. I remind him and the House that we are talking about an industry that, over the next 40 years, will have to renew every part of its infrastructure—all the generating capacity currently in existence will need to be replaced, along with all the transmission equipment, and for that matter, all the equipment in our homes and in industry that consumes the energy. There will be a complete turnover of infrastructure. One of the most fundamental questions for the Government in developing their energy policy is whether to be proactive or to let a like-for-like replacement policy dominate, without taking advantage of the technological and market changes that are available.
I therefore hope that the Minister will confirm that "long-term" will be as long as it needs to be and, if we are considering the overall patterns of generation, transmission and consumption, that the longer view will be taken into account and factored in. The decisions taken in the short or medium term will determine whether we can reach the long-term solutions that I believe that he wants. Certainly, the White Paper said that the Government wanted such solutions, but they cannot be achieved simply by leaving matters to chance.
We will support the new clause, which is a very important part of the Bill. It is the nearest there is to a provision that considers an overall long-term strategy. From that point of view, it is the core of the Bill.
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