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Mr. Timms: As the House will know, the spending review announced yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor included a good settlement for the NDA, with a budget of some £2 billion a year for the three years of the spending review period. The NDA will therefore be well placed to achieve the targets that we have set for safe, secure, cost-effective and environmentally friendly nuclear clean-up.
New clause 17 and amendments Nos. 29 to 35 would establish general, overarching environmental principles that should govern the operation and behaviour of the NDA. Our position is clear: the protection of the environment and the safety of people are central to the objectives and activities of the NDA and of its site operators. Ensuring the observance of the high standards that we have in the UK is the responsibility of the nuclear regulators. Nothing in the Bill alters the regulatory framework, and potentially, it would be seriously damaging to cut across that well-established regulatory framework by giving the NDA, as this proposal would, a principal objective of ensuring the delivery of what are regulatory requirements. We must not do anything to undermine the successful work of the regulators.
Amendments Nos. 38 to 40 would constrain the NDA's activities by ruling out the generation of additional nuclear waste. That is an admirable objective but could impose damaging constraints on the work of the NDA in managing nuclear clean-up effectively. That is a decision for the NDA properly to make within the framework of its duties and responsibilities.
Amendment No. 37 would delineate the roles and responsibilities of the NDA and Nirex. The Government have established the Committee on Radioactive Waste Management to advise on long-term policy for the management of higher-activity wastes. The future roles and responsibilities of the bodies involved will be decided in the light of that advice.
13 Jul 2004 : Column 1356
Norman Baker: How is it that the Minister can announce the chair of the NDA before the Bill is even passed, but cannot announce the separation of roles between Nirex and the NDA when the Bill is almost complete?
Mr. Timms: The hon. Gentleman will recall that we had extensive discussion in Committee about the position on the NDA and Nirex, and I set out the arrangements by which we had been able to appoint a chair designate, because of the importance of the NDA and of having the authority in place by April next year.
On amendment No. 26 on financing, it is already the Government's policy to require the establishment of segregated funds for privatised parts of the nuclear industry—for example, in the case of British Energy. We do not consider it necessary to extend that to all private sector companies with nuclear facilities. We will take decisions on whether to establish a long-term nuclear waste management body once we have received advice from the Committee on Radioactive Waste Management.
Amendments Nos. 41 and 42 would prevent the Government from exercising effectively an important option in respect of restructuring agreements to protect taxpayers' interests. We have taken an option to buy each of British Energy's nuclear power stations for £1 at the time that British Energy plans to shut them, either to decommission them or to continue to operate them beyond that date. It may be possible to decommission them more cost-effectively in the public sector, using expertise gained by the NDA on public sector nuclear sites. It might also be possible to defer decommissioning costs, which would fall on the nuclear liabilities fund, which is underwritten by Government, by operating the stations and generating income beyond the date when British Energy would shut them. Those benefits, and the protection that they offer the taxpayer, would be lost if we were prevented from passing British Energy sites to the NDA to decommission only if British Energy was bankrupt. I do not think that the proposed change is sensible.
Mr. Wilson: It does not look as though we shall have time to discuss the final group of amendments. Will the Minister confirm that British Energy had to be bailed out because of the market-driven ideological zeal of Ofgem? Would it not be a pity if the same approach were applied to renewable energy and transmission systems? That too would fly in the face of Government energy policy and ultimately Ofgem would make a decision against the national interest, the energy interest and the public interest.
Mr. Timms: I think that my right hon. Friend is stretching a point by trying to bring in the last group of amendments at this stage—and I do not think that he is being fair in saying that what happened to British Energy was entirely down to Ofgem. No doubt we shall still be able to have some exchanges about that last group.
Amendment No. 32 places a duty on the NDA to ensure that the polluter pays for nuclear clean-up. The NDA is not the appropriate body to determine who pays for clean-up. The Government's position is clear.
13 Jul 2004 : Column 1357
We support the polluter pays principle, but when that proves impossible it is right for Government to determine the appropriate arrangements for financing clean-up. The Bill allows the NDA to be made responsible for securing the clean-up, and for the levying of appropriate charges.
I undertook in Committee to consider what could be done to respond to suggestions from the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr. Robertson) about increasing parliamentary oversight of the NDA's activities. I hope that he will welcome amendments Nos. 11 and 12, which require the NDA's strategy and annual plan to be laid before Parliament, and provide for parallel provisions for the Scottish Parliament that have been agreed with the Scottish Executive. Amendments Nos. 15 to 17 make three minor drafting changes arising from the last detailed check of the Bill.
Mr. Laurence Robertson: It is regrettable that we must rush through 20 new clauses and amendments, with two more groups to debate in the remaining eight minutes. I will not go into as much detail as I would otherwise. It is also regrettable that the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) took such an anti-nuclear stance when raising important points. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the relationship between Nirex and the NDA should have been determined long before the Bill was even introduced but, mindful of the time, I will not go into that.
I welcome amendments Nos. 11 and 12. As expected, the Minister has been as good as his word. They are important amendments that allow the House sight of the financial plan and the NDA's strategy. Given the amount of money to be allocated to and deployed by the NDA, and given that it will do so much work, it is vital for Parliament to have sight of the reports. We pressed for that in Committee, and I am grateful to the Minister for tabling the amendments.
Norman Baker: I am not convinced by what the Minister said. He has failed to grasp the nuclear nettle. There are numerous outstanding issues relating to finance, the construction of the NDA and its relationship with Nirex. As there is very little time anyway, I intend to press the new clause to a vote.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
The House divided: Ayes 39, Noes 273.
AYES
Baker, Norman
Beith, rh A. J.
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Calton, Mrs Patsy
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies (NE Fife)
Carmichael, Alistair
Chidgey, David
Cotter, Brian
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Doughty, Sue
Ewing, Annabelle
Foster, Don (Bath)
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
Gidley, Sandra
Hancock, Mike
Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)
Harvey, Nick
Heath, David
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Keetch, Paul
Kirkwood, Sir Archy
Laws, David (Yeovil)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Moore, Michael
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Pugh, Dr. John
Rendel, David
Robertson, Angus (Moray)
Salmond, Alex
Sanders, Adrian
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)
Stunell, Andrew
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thurso, John
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Webb, Steve (Northavon)
Weir, Michael
Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Wishart, Pete
Tellers for the Ayes:
Bob Russell and
Mr. Alan Reid
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Adams, Irene (Paisley N)
Ainger, Nick
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Austin, John
Baird, Vera
Barnes, Harry
Barron, rh Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burnham, Andy
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Caplin, Ivor
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)
Corston, Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom (Tooting)
Cranston, Ross
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davidson, Ian
Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, rh John
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dodds, Nigel
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Drew, David (Stroud)
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul (Newport W)
Foulkes, rh George
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, David (Midlothian)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hodge, Margaret
Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Ingram, rh Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Johnson, Alan (Hull W)
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keen, Alan (Feltham)
Keen, Ann (Brentford)
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)
McCafferty, Chris
McDonagh, Siobhain
MacDonald, Calum
McDonnell, John
MacDougall, John
McFall, rh John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahmood, Khalid
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mandelson, rh Peter
Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury & Atcham)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Martlew, Eric
Meacher, rh Michael
Meale, Alan (Mansfield)
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Alan
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moonie, Dr. Lewis
Moran, Margaret
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Elliot
Morris, rh Estelle
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Perham, Linda
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Pollard, Kerry
Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Purnell, James
Quinn, Lawrie
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)
Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheridan, Jim
Short, rh Clare
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stevenson, George
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Touhig, Don (Islwyn)
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)
Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Robert N.
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wills, Michael
Wilson, Brian
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Wood, Mike (Batley)
Woodward, Shaun
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Noes:
Charlotte Atkins and
Joan Ryan
Question accordingly negatived.
13 Jul 2004 : Column 1360
It being after Six o'clock, Madam Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour, pursuant to Order [10 May].
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