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19 Jul 2004 : Column 99
Public Audit (Wales) Bill [Lords] (Programme) (No. 2)
8.21 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Don Touhig): I beg to move,
That the programme order of 17th June 2004 in relation to the Public Audit (Wales) Bill [Lords] be varied as follows:
Consideration and Third Reading
1. Paragraphs 4 and 5 of the order shall be omitted.
2. Proceedings on consideration and Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion:
(a) at the moment of interruption at this day's sitting, or
(b) one hour after the commencement of proceedings on the motion for this order, whichever is the later.
The Bill has received cross-party support, which was reflected in its smooth passage on Second Reading and in Committee. I hope that the motion will command widespread support, and I commend it to the House.
8.22 pm
Mr. Bill Wiggin (Leominster) (Con): We would normally object to a programme motion, because it is not the way in which to get the proper debate that measures need. However, under the circumstances and because we have found so much that is positive in the Bill, it is difficult to press for a Division. I shall therefore not object at this stage.
8.23 pm
Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con):
Hon. Members who are in the Chamber for this important debate would like to hear a little more from the Under-Secretary about the reasons for rushing the measure through. It is not good for parliamentary debate when we have plenty of time—the evening is yet young—and the big business has already been tackled if the Under-
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Secretary simply comes to the Dispatch Box and says nothing by way of introduction to what, I am sure, he regards as an important Bill for Wales. [Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. Would hon. Members who do not wish to be present for the debate please leave the Chamber quietly?
Mr. Redwood: To satisfy me that we can complete our proceedings in the specified time, it would be useful if, to avoid delay or a possible Division, the Under-Secretary would explain why he believes that the remaining issues can be tackled in the stated time.
8.24 pm
Mr. Touhig: I shall happily respond to the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), who had responsibility for Welsh matters in a previous incarnation. The Bill received detailed consideration in the other place. In Committee, I said to the right hon., I mean, the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin)—he is not yet right hon., but you never know—that the Bill was assisted by the comments and contributions of the Opposition parties. We completed the Committee stage in less than one day.
Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): What?
Mr. Touhig: The right hon. Gentleman suggests that that is outrageous. If he paid attention to the pre-legislative scrutiny, which is now custom and practice when we deal with Welsh legislation, he might not think that it is outrageous. The Bill was considered in Committee, with 40-odd amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Leominster. They all received extensive consideration.
Pre-legislative scrutiny also took place. The Welsh Affairs Committee produced a report, the relevant Assembly Committee produced a report and the Welsh Grand Committee debated the Bill a year ago. The measure has received much consideration and enjoys widespread support from all parties. I therefore hope that we can proceed to debating the amendment.
Question put and agreed to.
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19 Jul 2004 : Column 101
Public Audit (Wales) Bill [Lords]
As amended in the Standing Committee, considered.
Clause 3
8.25 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Don Touhig): I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 4, line 30 at end insert—
'(3A) In determining how to exercise his functions under this section, the Auditor General for Wales shall take into account the views of the Audit Committee as to the studies which he should undertake or promote under this section.'.
The amendment would require the Auditor General for Wales to take account of the views of the National Assembly's Audit Committee in determining which studies to undertake or promote in the exercise of his functions under clause 3. That provision will enable the Auditor General to undertake comparative cross-cutting and forward-looking studies on value for money.
The Auditor General's powers to undertake value-for-money examinations are currently retrospective, in that they relate to the way in which the Assembly and its sponsored bodies have used resources in discharging functions. Sections 100 and 145 of the Government of Wales Act 1998, which relate to value-for-money examinations in respect of the National Assembly, Assembly-sponsored public bodies and national health service bodies in Wales, require the Auditor General to take account of the Committee's views. The amendment brings clause 3 into line with those provisions.
In practice, the Auditor General would consult the Audit Committee on his proposals under clause 3. The hon. Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams), who has apologised being unable to be present, remarked on the difference in approach during our debate in Standing Committee. I believe that the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin) also did that. I undertook to reflect on the remarks that were made. I have done that.
Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Will the Under-Secretary assure us that, if the Auditor General believes that an important item needs investigating but could prove embarrassing to the Assembly, he would none the less proceed in the public interest?
Mr. Touhig: The right hon. Gentleman knows from his ministerial experience that the Auditor General has always exercised such independence. In our debate in Committee and in another place, the Auditor General's independence was never questioned.
In Committee, I undertook to reflect on the comments of the hon. Member for Caernarfon, which were supported by the hon. Member for Leominster. That is the reason for the amendment.
Mr. Bill Wiggin (Leominster) (Con):
I thank the Minister for introducing the Government amendment to subsection (3) of clause 3, which adds to the Auditor General's understanding of his abilities to comment on a body's objectives in considering their economy, efficiency and effectiveness. I am also grateful to the hon.
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Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams), and I am pleased that the Government have undertaken, following the suggestion that we made in Committee, to modify the wording of this subsection to allow the Auditor General to make the most constructive input possible without impinging on his independence.
We do not want the Auditor General to be constrained in doing his work and we were concerned that, as the Bill stands, the provision would have discouraged him from commenting on policies that he might discover to be causing ineffectiveness or inefficiency. However, this arrangement is the same as the one that applies to the Audit Commission, which has caused no problems in the current audit arrangements. The amendment will allow the Auditor General to learn and seek advice from the Audit Commission, and that will further guarantee that he will not be constrained by the wording of the subsection. We therefore intend to support the Government amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
8.29 pm
Mr. Touhig: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
The Bill was brought from another place on 12 May. It received its Second Reading on 17 June, was considered in Standing Committee on 29 June and has been considered on Report this evening. It is an excellent example of how the Government and the National Assembly are working together in partnership in the interests of the people of Wales. It will deliver a unified public audit body with responsibility for public audit standards in Wales vested in a single, readily identifiable head—the Auditor General for Wales.
The Bill's objective has been widely welcomed by all who have been involved in its early scrutiny. That includes the stakeholders, most notably the Auditor General for Wales himself, the National Assembly, the National Audit Office, the Audit Commission and the Welsh Local Government Association. I also welcome the fact that the Bill's objectives have generally received all-party support during its passage through Parliament, both here and in another place.
The Bill was first published in draft in April 2003. More than 200 organisations were consulted, and the Bill has been scrutinised by both the Welsh Affairs Committee and the Committee of the National Assembly. Of the 41 recommendations for change or clarification made as a result of the pre-legislative scrutiny and public consultation, 19 were accepted. This process has given further proof, if any were needed, of the immense value of pre-legislative scrutiny in refining and improving draft legislation before its introduction to Parliament. The draft Transport (Wales) Bill represents a further significant advance in the development of pre-legislative scrutiny, in that it was considered last month by a joint Committee of the House of Commons and the Assembly.
In addition, further improvements have been made to the Public Audit (Wales) Bill as a result of amendments made during its passage through another place and in this House. A total of 32 amendments have been made. Apart from reflecting great credit on the Members of
19 Jul 2004 : Column 103
both Houses who participated in the Bill's passage—they have made an important contribution—this process has also demonstrated the Government's determination to achieve a very high quality Bill in an open-minded, non-partisan way. It has demonstrated the House operating at its very best. A total of 23 amendments were made during the Bill's passage through the other place. Eight Government amendments were moved and accepted during its debate in Standing Committee, and I earlier moved a further amendment that resulted from that debate.
In Committee, I also undertook to reflect on comments made by the hon. Members for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin) and for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams) on the principle that the Auditor General for Wales cannot question the policy objectives of a body for which he has audit responsibilities. The hon. Member for Leominster suggested that the wording of clause 3 might be modified to enable the Auditor General to make a
"constructive input without impinging on his independence."—[Official Report, Standing Committee D, 29 June 2004; c. 12.]
I promised to look at the wording of the clause and consider whether it was possible or appropriate to make any changes. I have done so, and I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the wording of clause 3 preventing the Auditor General from questioning the merits of policy objectives is consistent with the provisions already enacted in the Government of Wales Act 1998. It is clear and unambiguous and it reflects a well-established, acceptable principle. As I said in Committee, it does not prevent the Auditor General from expressing a view on the way in which organisations are working towards achieving their objectives. For this reason, the Government are of the view that the wording should remain unchanged. I hope that I have been able to satisfy the hon. Gentleman's concerns on that issue and that he is content with the explanation that I have given him this evening.
The hon. Gentleman also expressed the view in Committee that the treatment of criminal sanctions in the Bill was inconsistent, and he urged the Government to reconsider those provisions. However, the Government remain of the view that their position in trying to preserve consistency in sanctions in the context of primary legislation is entirely consistent. If criminal sanctions in primary legislation are to be reviewed, it is right that that should be done on an England and Wales basis, and not on a piecemeal basis.
In Committee, I announced that the Government intend to amend section 49 of the Audit Commission Act 1998 to drop the imprisonment sanction that currently applies to the unlawful disclosure of information under its provisions. It will also be deleted from clause 54 once the Bill is enacted and receives Royal Assent. I mentioned in Committee that the detail of repeal is still under consideration, but it will be done at the earliest opportunity. That is an excellent example of how the Government are prepared to consider and act on the issue of criminal sanctions in a structured and consistent way.
In addition to announcing the criminal sanction repeal, I also reaffirm the Government's determination to proceed with orders that will bring both section 49 of
19 Jul 2004 : Column 104
the Audit Commission Act 1998 and clause 54 of this Bill, once enacted, wholly within the spirit of the Freedom of Information Act 2000. The amendments will be made before the end of the year—I first made that pledge to amend clause 54 on Second Reading, I repeated it in Committee, and I reaffirm it now.
I wish to pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, South (Mr. Jones), who chairs the Welsh Affairs Committee, to parliamentary colleagues, and to the National Assembly for the scrutiny that they conducted when this Bill was presented in draft. The Bill, and the public audit process that it heralds, have benefited considerably from their endeavours. I also wish to pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths) for his chairmanship of the Standing Committee. He chaired proceedings in a good-humoured and thoroughly professional way, which is his hallmark. I know of his plans to retire at the next election—he will be sadly missed on both sides of the House.
This Bill offers a single framework for public audit in Wales, with expertise brought together in a single body that will serve the whole spectrum of public sector bodies in Wales. That will complement the inclusive and cross-cutting way in which government works in Wales. A single audit body will also facilitate the development of and spread best audit practice. The Bill will ensure the maintenance and continuing development of the high standards of financial accountability and probity that already exist in Wales. Taxpayers have a right to expect continual improvement in the standards that underpin the spending of their money.
The Bill will give the Auditor General the tools that he or she needs to meet the challenges that lie ahead: for instance, from the increasing complexity of financial management systems. It will enable him or her to be both an effective watchdog and a valuable adviser to the public sector in Wales. It will also enable the Auditor General and his or her staff to participate fully in the development of audit and corporate governance both within the United Kingdom and internationally.
With those few remarks, I commend the Bill to the House.
8.37 pm
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