| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Wiggin: I have had an enjoyable day in Wales, at the Royal Welsh show. It is a shame that we are considering the Bill today, when Welsh Labour Members could have been at the show, along with the Prince of Wales. The Government seem to be keen to get Welsh business done this week, however, which is why the Welsh Grand Committee is sitting tomorrow, despite the fact that the report on which we will comment was released only at lunchtime today.
We broadly welcome the Bill in principle, and believe that the consolidation of a single audit regime in Wales will benefit the people of Wales; the new Wales Audit Office has great potential to improve the best value use of resources in public services and government in Wales. The Conservatives have worked hard to improve the Bill as much as possible in both Houses of Parliament, and we owe our thanks to the noble Baroness Noakes and the noble Lord Roberts of Conwy, who contributed enormously to that improvement.
19 Jul 2004 : Column 105
In Committee, we proposed 44 amendments to improve the Bill, while Plaid Cymru proposed only two. The Liberal Democrats put down not a single, solitary amendment. I therefore hope that they will not try to claim the credit, although I suspect that they probably will.
Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I noticed that, in Committee, the hon. Gentleman criticised me for not being present for its proceedings. Was he aware of the fact that I was not on the Committee? In the context of this Bill, would he like a private audit of his parliamentary knowledge, so that he does not commit the same gaffe in future?
Mr. Wiggin: The hon. Gentleman should have read Hansard more carefully. We were critical of his press release, to the Delyn Chronicle, I think, in which he claimed full credit for all the amendments to the Bill, despite the fact, as he has just told the House, that he was not on the Committee. I am therefore grateful to him for intervening at this moment, and he is welcome to dive in whenever he feels like doing so.
The independence of the Auditor General is paramount, as are transparency and consistency. Unfortunately, I did not agree with what the Minister said—I feel that the Bill falls down on at least one of those, with inconsistencies remaining throughout the Bill. Most of its contents are lifted from the current audit arrangements for England and Wales under the Audit Commission Act 1998. It should have been based on the principles of effective audit of public money in Wales. The Government have worked hard with us to improve it significantly, but the opportunity to give Wales the best possible audit regime has to an extent been missed.
The Bill is an amalgamation of existing and new provisions, so there is an underlying theme of inconsistency. One of the inconsistencies that concern us most appears in clauses 5 and 11. We have brought it to the Government's attention on several occasions. It concerns the Auditor General's right of access. Clause 5 deals with registered social landlords and local government, and applies criminal sanctions for non-compliance, whereas clause 11 deals with rights of access to general information, but no criminal sanctions apply.
The Government have created inconsistencies in Wales because of their insistence on keeping criminal law consistent with England, but even that argument is faulty, because the Assembly is given the ability to create criminal offences in clause 39. Any consistency in criminal law between England and Wales will be broken as soon as the Assembly uses that power. There was the potential for Wales to have a far more logical audit regime if internal consistency had been the focus. In simply regurgitating what already exists in England, the Bill represents something of a missed opportunity for Wales.
We think it important for the Bill itself to be consistent, so that the people of Wales are not faced with the potential confusion caused by different rules for different people. Either there should be criminal sanctions for all, or there should be none. We have made it clear throughout that we do not consider criminal sanctions necessary.
19 Jul 2004 : Column 106
Let me say something about schedule 2. As we said in Committee in connection with our new clause 1 and amendment No. 44, it is a shame that the Auditor General does not have power to extend his value-for-money studies to English local government. Under schedule 2 to the Audit Commission Act, the Audit Commission in England will be able to study Welsh bodies, but no such power is given to the Auditor General.
I am sure we can trust the good will of the Audit Commission to co-operate if necessary, but the Bill should include a duty for the commission to co-operate in respect of the Auditor General's functions under sections 41 and 42 of the Act. I am sure that none of us would want Wales to be at a disadvantage, or would want the Auditor General's work to be hindered because he has no power to conduct comparative studies in England. It seems most unfair that the Audit Commission should have the equivalent power in Wales.
In Committee we tabled some useful amendments on, for instance, electronic publishing, which I feel the Government did not take as seriously as I would have liked. We have the chance to create a new audit regime for Wales that is light years ahead, or at least a few steps ahead, of any other regime. I should have thought that that was in line with the Government's claim that they would make Wales a world-class place. The opportunity for Wales to lead the world in audit regimes has not been fully taken, and I think we should all regret that.
I thank the Minister for what he has said today about clause 54, which is controversial. We welcome the removal of imprisonment from the list of criminal sanctions. It is a victory for whistleblowers throughout Wales, who no longer face the possibility of being put in prison for disclosing information about local government. Conservative Members have worked hard with the Government to improve the clause enough for us to be able to support it. Although the Liberal Democrats have tried to claim the credit, I think even they will have to admit that the further amendments are a result of pressure from the Conservatives and the Minister's hard work—although I doubt that that will appear in their press release. They are likely to skate over that important fact.
The Government's proposals and assurances, however, have not gone quite as far as we might have liked to safeguard whistleblowers in Wales who disclose information other than the exceptions in clause 54(2). We still have no access to the wording of the promised amendment to the Freedom of Information Act. In Committee and again today, the Minister said that the Bill should not be enacted until 2005, and that by then we shall have been able to see the wording of the amendment. I hope that our trust in that promise will not prove to have been misplaced.
Overall, the Bill is a welcome measure for the people of Wales, so it has our support. While amendments have been made to the controversial clause 54, which deals with restrictions on disclosure of information, we must all ensure that whistleblowers are not deterred from reporting corruption in local government audit. We have tried our best to improve the Bill, and the 23 amendments made in the other place were the result, as I said, of the hard work of Baroness Noakes and Lord Roberts of Conwy.
19 Jul 2004 : Column 107
The creation of a single audit body for Wales will benefit the people of Wales. The Government have worked hard on consideration of our amendments, and the Bill is a better measure as a result. I was a member of the Welsh Affairs Committee when it began its consultation, so I know that the hon. Member for Clwyd, South (Mr. Jones) has done a great deal of work, as have all members of the Committee. Their contribution was valuable because the Government listened to them, and that was the most constructive aspect of pre-legislative scrutiny. It is, however, a shame that the Government have chosen the short-sighted approach of simply importing current audit arrangements instead of grasping the chance to make Wales the beacon of good audit practice.
8.45 pm
Mr. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): I, too, support the Bill. The Liberal Democrats have backed an improvement in audit arrangements in Wales for some time, and the Minister will know that a number of local authorities are concerned about the nature of audit reports and their public availability. The Bill will strengthen the position of the Auditor General for Wales, ensuring that his work is more widely available and is used to better effect. Local government was once afraid of his advent, but nowadays he is seen as a "friend" who can assist local authorities' work by improving the effectiveness and efficiency of public service delivery.
Combing two audit bodies into one organisation will bring genuine benefits to Wales. One of my constituents, for example, complained about the disposal of surplus NHS property and planning arrangements for the site. Unfortunately, one audit body looked at details of the disposal while the other was brought in to look at the remaining problems. As a result, my constituent felt that the overall issue did not receive the attention that it would have received from a single body. Arguments about who was responsible for amendments, including Government amendments, are not edifying, but we should put on record our thanks to my noble Friends in the other place for their contribution. Lord Evans made a commitment to deal with the problems caused by clause 54, but it was left to the Under-Secretary to deliver the details of the solution in Committee and on the Floor of the House. We accept his commitment to amend the clause by altering section 49 of the Audit Commission Act 1998. On Second Reading, my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) said that he did so because the Minister has an honest face but, in fact, the Minister is on the record as giving that assurance on at least three occasions.
One of the Welsh Affairs Committee's concerns in taking evidence was that combining two bodies into a single body should result in lower overheads and costs. Work is going ahead to set up the audit body under the control of the Auditor General for Wales. He will surely ensure that his own business is run as effectively and efficiently as possible, and take the opportunity to reduce the associated overheads.
Tribute has been paid to the work that the hon. Member for Clwyd, South (Mr. Jones) has done as Chairman of the Welsh Affairs Committee. Although
19 Jul 2004 : Column 108
the process can never be important as the outcome, that process has pointed the way towards greater co-operation between this place and the Assembly. I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman's efforts to ensure that such co-operation has proceeded smoothly and productively.
The work of the Welsh Affairs Committee is greatly appreciated, as was the Minister's willingness to table amendments to ensure that section 49 of the 1998 Act meets our requirements. As such, we will support the Bill.
8.51 pm
| Next Section | Index | Home Page |