---

Mr. Paul Keetch (Hereford) (LD): I, too, thank the Secretary of State for early sight of the statement and pay tribute to the members of our armed forces.

Under Labour, our armed forces have seen an unprecedented tempo of action not only in combat in Kosovo, Sierra Leone, East Timor, Afghanistan and Iraq, but in filling vital gaps in the public services at home during the fuel crisis, foot and mouth disease and the firemen's strike. However, today, members of the armed forces will feel little reward for their unparalleled commitment. There is more money but the Government are desperately trying to do more with less. I agree with
 
21 Jul 2004 : Column 354
 
the MOD that there is a need to look at the defence budget, but Labour seems to be looking in the wrong places.

The most unbalanced part of the defence budget is the procurement programme—it is not infantry regiments, warships or RAF units. When it comes to cutting costs—or cutting corners—it is easier to cut current capabilities than future ones.Future capabilities take a long time to come on stream. Cuts are made instantly.

We welcome the decision on carriers that was announced today. It is right to take time to look at that, but why cut the number of surface ships and why order Type 45s without land attack capability? We welcome the decision on the C-17 announced by the Government today. We should have bought the four in the first place but which RAF bases are the Government considering cutting and why proceed with so many Typhoons that may never have an enemy to fight against?

On the Army, why invest so much in network-centric capabilities and effects-based operations, when the lesson of Iraq and Afghanistan is that winning the peace is more difficult than winning wars? That depends on low-tech soldiering, not high-tech weapons. We agree with getting rid of the arms plot but why cut the troop numbers? Which battalions are now under review?

The UK has a deserved reputation in conflict prevention and in peacekeeping. Spending on prevention should increase, so that we do not need to spend so much on cleaning up when it is too late.

The Secretary of State talks about redundancies. Can he give a cast-iron commitment today that no individual currently or recently serving in Iraq or Afghanistan will receive compulsory redundancy as a result of the announcements today? Does that mean that manning control is back? If 10,000 civil service jobs are to go, does that mean more work for uniformed members of the armed forces? Our armed forces are ridiculously overstretched, so why not use spare capacity to reduce overstretch? We do not know what the future holds. A little spare capacity would be a good thing. We do not need to issue redundancy notices.

The Secretary of State, however long he is in his current job, will be judged on whether he has the balance right—high tech on one side, troops on the other. The Liberal Democrats believe that today he has got that balance wrong.

Mr. Hoon: I also look forward to a detailed assessment by the Liberal Democrats of their spending proposals on defence. So far, they have promised a lot but they have not delivered a great deal of detail. I know that the hon. Gentleman's heart is in the right place but, if he will forgive me, I sometimes wonder where his head is. I was somewhat puzzled that he started by criticising our expenditure on new equipment and then immediately—almost without a breath—suggested the purchase of an extremely expensive piece of equipment that he thought we had failed to announce. When he looks at his remarks in Hansard tomorrow, he might note a certain inconsistency about that.

As the hon. Gentleman travels the country, telling the workers of BAE Systems and other companies such as Rolls-Royce that the Liberal Democrats intend to cut remaining versions of Typhoon—which, incidentally, will be a multi-role version that is capable of ground
 
21 Jul 2004 : Column 355
 
attack, a rather vital military requirement at present, and is in no way outdated or redundant—he will be able to explain to the tens of thousands who work in the high-tech defence industry that the Liberal Democrats also want us to go back to wooden aircraft, presumably for flying across the fields of France. The idea that Typhoon—the latest and best fast jet available anywhere in the world—can be cancelled is nonsense and if he thought about it for a second, he would realise that.

As for redundancies and so on, there will have to be a reduction in numbers consistent with my announcement but I am confident that that can be done largely through natural wastage and confident that we can do it in consultation with the people affected.

Linda Gilroy (Plymouth, Sutton) (Lab/Co-op): I congratulate my right hon. Friend on achieving real growth in the defence budget for the third year running, which will be welcomed by the defence community. I agree about the importance of achieving value for money in support services to make way for expenditure on new equipment. Will he confirm his commitment to awarding contracts for support services, particularly for surface ship refits, on the basis of competition, rather than allocation? Does he understand the concerns of people in Plymouth that that was not borne out in the recent award of the contract for HMS Edinburgh?

Mr. Hoon: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for her thoughtful and measured approach to these difficult and complex issues. I agree that it is important that we look at the way in which defence funds are used effectively and competitively to provide the best equipment and the best repair. I have indicated that I will be willing to discuss with her the basis of the decision in relation to HMS Edinburgh. I understand why she makes such effective representations on behalf of her constituents.

Mr. Michael Jack (Fylde) (Con): I welcome the Secretary of State's commitment to the Eurofighter Typhoon. Will he put on record the numbers of aircraft that he is negotiating to purchase in tranche 2? Given the length of time it is taking him to negotiate best value in this context, will he also tell the House what are the barriers to further progress? When does he expect those matters to be resolved and when will the four partner nations be able to announce the purchase of tranche 2?

Mr. Hoon: I am consistently grateful for the right hon. Gentleman's interest in Typhoon. I share his view that it is a vital asset for Britain's future military capabilities. Seven aircraft have now been received by the RAF and are performing better than anticipated, but these are commercial issues. The contract for tranche 2 will be signed when I judge that we have an offer on the table that is affordable and delivers the kind of capability that I judge to be necessary for the future of this country. I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman's help in persuading the parties to the contract to produce a sensible proposal.

Mr. Bruce George (Walsall, South) (Lab): Does the Secretary of State accept that this is déjà vu all over again? I have listened on at least 10 occasions when
 
21 Jul 2004 : Column 356
 
announcements of cuts have been followed by promises of great improvements; I need to be reassured. Will he keep his diary free for the first week in September, as we will be inviting him before the Defence Committee to explain his statement, where he will face not rhetoric but real and serious questions? I accept that some of what my right hon. Friend said is good; I hope he accepts that. But who was the idiot who thought that we could cut the infantry at a time when the pressure on it was enormous? Has he consulted Gerry Adams or maybe the Fire Brigades Union about whether they will behave themselves over the next few years?

Finally, he may not know that the Staffordshire Regiment is to celebrate its 300th anniversary next year. Will it do so? Or, having seen off the French, Germans, Americans, Bolsheviks, Burmese, Zulus and assorted African and Indian armies, will it see off or be seen off by my right hon. Friend's Government?

Mr. Hoon: I always enjoy my right hon. Friend's rhetoric and I accept that, during the deliberations of the Defence Committee, we will avoid rhetoric. I look forward, on a date of his choosing in September, to explaining to the Defence Committee in greater detail than I have done today why it is necessary to restructure the armed forces in the way the Government are proposing.

Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): Will the Secretary of State now answer the question on the Staffordshire Regiment? Will he accept an invitation from me to come to Staffordshire in March next year to celebrate the 300th anniversary? Will he give a speech, assuring the people of Staffordshire that the regiment in which they have such wonderful pride will have a fourth centenary?

Mr. Hoon: The hon. Gentleman has been an absolutely consistent supporter of the armed forces and has set out on many occasions in my hearing the importance of the Government supporting those men and women in their difficult and dangerous job. This restructuring is in order to allow those men and women to continue to do their job in the 21st century. The world has changed beyond recognition in terms of the kind of external threats faced by the men and women in our armed forces and by their families. Frankly, the idea that we can move those men and their families around every two years for essentially traditional reasons is long past its sell-by date. It is absolutely vital that we provide greater consistency in terms of our future requirements. As I said in my statement, identity is vital, as is maintaining the regimental tradition and history by which the hon. Gentleman rightly sets such store. There is no reason why, under our proposals, those traditions and that history cannot be maintained in the course of the restructuring.

---