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Mr. Jenkin: If the referendum in the north-east goes ahead, we shall see how the people vote there, what the turnout is and whether people really want an elected regional assembly.

Mr. George Osborne: It is worth reminding the House that when some related orders were debated on Monday, one was carried by only nine votes to seven, and indeed would have been lost by the Government without the support of the Liberal Democrats, because of the number of Labour Members put on that Committee by the Whips who voted against the Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, the hon. Member for Corby (Phil Hope).

Mr. Jenkin: It is little wonder that even pro-assembly Members are running for cover when The Journal, the pro-assembly Newcastle paper, runs headlines such as "Bosses line up to urge 'no' vote". The fact is that the proposals are losing support by the day. No wonder the Prime Minister has asked his man in the ODPM to sort out an exit strategy.

Mrs. Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): Is the hon. Gentleman aware that only today in the north-west, the business leadership team, representing the top businesses in the region, is urging a yes vote?

Mr. Jenkin: May I point out that the business leadership team is a little team appointed entirely by the Deputy Prime Minister? Its members are well-known
 
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supporters of the yes campaign, but I promise hon. Members that if we took a poll of business men in the north-west, there would be no doubt about the sentiments they would express, and it is the same in the north-east and in Yorkshire.

We still do not know what powers an elected assembly would have. Throughout the past 12 months, we have had ministerial claim and counter-claim about what the powers are to be. Why have the Government not simply published the draft Bill as they originally promised? What do they have to hide? Even staunch advocates of elected assemblies, such as the right hon. Member for Gateshead, East and Washington, West, pressed them to publish it before the orders were debated. One can only conclude that Ministers are deliberately withholding information that would serve to inform both this debate and the public, because they fear telling the truth.

This is the last occasion on which the House will debate these issues before the people themselves consider the question as set out on the referendum ballot paper, as contained in the orders.

The preamble on the ballot paper, which every voter will read before voting, says that

"the elected assembly would be responsible for a range of activities currently carried out mainly by central government bodies".

That is what the Minister believes to be correct, but we have not seen the draft Bill, so we have no idea whether it is, in fact, correct. Will it contain new policies that the Deputy Prime Minister has hinted at—on learning and skills councils, police authorities and perhaps even a Barnett formula for the north-east, which was promulgated with the north-west business leadership team at a meeting in December last year? Will it contain those new powers or, as the Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, the hon. Member for Corby (Phil Hope) told my hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman) in a letter, will it simply reflect what was set out in the White Paper? In that case, we certainly dispute the fact that the functions are mainly carried out by central Government bodies.

I have to tell the Minister that that statement is, at the very least, a subject of political dispute and controversy. It is not undisputed fact. The Government could perhaps have settled the matter by publishing the draft Bill, but instead they have put something on the ballot paper that is obviously designed to skew the debate in their favour.

Mr. Raynsford: We have always committed ourselves to publishing the draft Bill as soon as the House approves the orders, because it is important to provide information to the public. That is the purpose. If there were not going to be a referendum because the orders were not passed, there would clearly be no purpose in publishing the Bill for information. That is why we are committed to publishing the Bill as soon as the orders are passed.

I referred a short while ago to the representative of the no campaign at my hearing in Blackpool. Robin Wendt, a very distinguished person with previous experience of local government, made it clear that he wholly agreed with our view that the powers that we proposed for regional assemblies came overwhelmingly from central
 
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Government and agencies. In other words, the view of the Opposition that powers were being taken from local government was simply wrong.

Mr. Jenkin: I have not met the gentleman concerned, so I have no way of assessing the veracity of that statement. The fact remains that there is a long list of powers in the White Paper—including powers to deal with waste, transport and housing—that are currently carried out at local government level, but will subsequently be interfered with by regional assemblies. That is not what local government wants: it is not decentralisation, but fake devolution.

Mr. Edward Davey: The hon. Gentleman will know that in the spending review the Chancellor talked about options for transport powers being devolved and that in a statement last week the Secretary of State for Transport talked about the devolution of such powers. If that were the case, would the Conservatives welcome it?

Mr. Jenkin: I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not going to be suckered by what is in the White Paper. Let us consider what it actually says. Under the heading "Where we want to be", paragraph 9.4 states:

"We will improve the current arrangements for making decisions on transport. Central to this will be giving regional and local bodies more influence".

But what is "influence"? Influence means not having the final decision. These new organisations will be empowered with strategies, consultation and influence, but virtually no executive powers whatever. Even such executive powers as they will have, such as the appointment of directors to the regional development agencies—something that those agencies do not want—will be subject to the Minister's veto. That is not devolution; it is more centralisation.

Mr. Davey: If the hon. Gentleman is right about that, it would be worrying and we will not be suckered if that is what happens. However, the Chancellor said very clearly in the spending review that the Government would publish indicative budgets for transport early next year. We will hold the Government to that, because we believe that financial power is the key to the regional assemblies having real power.

Mr. Jenkin: But we know how the Government treat local authorities. They allocate transport spending to them, but say that they cannot spend it on one thing and have to spend it on another—otherwise they will not get it. Does the hon. Gentleman really think that the Government will treat regional government any differently? His faith is touching, but perhaps he should talk to his Liberal colleagues in the north-west who have decided to oppose elected regional assemblies in the referendums—[Interruption.] Many of them have. My hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne) will confirm that they are supporting the no campaign in the north-west and that campaign can expect to recruit a lot more Liberals as time goes on.

Mr. Neil Turner: My understanding is that Liberal Democrats in the north-west have not decided to
 
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support the no campaign, but to wait until the September meeting before they make up their minds. That is not unusual for Liberal Democrats, but it is wrong of the hon. Gentleman to say that they support the no campaign. They do not.

Mr. Jenkin: I think that we should leave the Liberal Democrats to their private grief on that matter.

The preamble makes a claim that cannot be substantiated, and the Government refuse to publish the Bill before we vote on these orders, which would enable us to evaluate the claim for ourselves. We have to take the matter on trust. The Government do not intend to publish the Bill until after the orders have been approved, which means it will be available tomorrow. I put it to the House that they have effectively broken the substance of the promise that they made to publish the draft Bill in good time.

Why do Ministers consistently slink away from any proper debate on the powers that elected assemblies will have? It is because their only chance of winning any of the referendums is by hiding the truth, running their propaganda campaign at the public expense, twisting the question on the ballot paper, issuing hundreds of thousands more ballot papers than can possibly be used legitimately, and then refusing to say how they will assess the result.

The whole process stinks of manipulation, propaganda, spin and deceit. Labour does not trust the people, as we have seen time and again. Labour does not tell the truth about hospital waiting lists, class sizes, rising crime, the real crisis in asylum or about intelligence on weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

We Conservatives do trust the people. The people of the north will see through Labour's cheap and despicable attempt to manipulate the result of these referendums. If the Government let the referendums go ahead on 4 November, the people of the north of England will show their contempt for the unwanted and wasteful talking-shop assemblies that will not create not one extra doctor, nurse or police man. That is what the people of the north really want.

4.27 pm

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