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Mr. George Osborne:
Does the hon. Gentleman agree with the Electoral Commission that the regional referendums should not be held on the same day as
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another kind of election? I ask only because the right hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Mandelson) is in the Chamber and he might be interested in that.
Mr. Davey: We can always make an exception if there should be a by-election, but the hon. Gentleman is right about what the Electoral Commission said. The Government found that there was no statutory power to ban by-elections, and council by-elections especially, during the relevant period, so his point does not directly relate to the order. He made his political point interestingly.
Will the Government ensure that they will not try to subcontract out the decision on whether the referendums should go ahead? It is vital that a political decision is taken for which the Minister is accountable to the House. The Electoral Commission's judgments and research are important. We have heard that it will make a separate statement on all-postal votes and the referendums, so there will not be a review of only what happened in June. We have also heard that the statement will be brought forward and made before the House returns in September, so I hope that the Minister will confirm that we will have time to debate the Electoral Commission's findings on our return. Although that information is all very well, the decision is fundamentally political. The Minister might decide to go ahead, pull the plug on everything, or go ahead in one or two regions, as the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry) inferred, but the decision will be political.
I argue that the Minister should not pull the referendums—we want them to go ahead—but there is concern in the north-west, especially, that the Government have not taken our advice or that of many other people and made the elected regional assemblies attractive to people who live in the regions. If they are to be more attractive, more powers must be on offer. The White Paper "Your Region, Your Choice" timidly and limply proposed the powers to be devolved, which was why during our negotiations with the Government when the Regional Assemblies (Preparations) Bill was in the other place, we pressurised them to publish a draft powers Bill. The hon. Member for North Essex made an awful lot of that, but the Government agreed to do it due to our negotiations. We did not have draft powers Bills before the referendums in Scotland, Wales or London. We will have such a Bill for the first time—it will be a major improvement to the process—thanks to negotiations between the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Government.
Joyce Quin: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Davey: In a moment. I know that the right hon. Lady played a part in that process, if I may pre-empt her.
The hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre (Mr. Dawson) said that devolution is a process rather than an event, and the Government have made it clear that they are open-minded about, and keen for, further devolution. We saw that in the spending review and the
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Secretary of State for Transport's statement last week, and I hope that we will see it when the draft powers Bill is published.
Joyce Quin: The hon. Gentleman's last words partly pre-empted what I was going to say. Recent announcements such as the transport strategy that he mentioned and the rural strategy that was introduced today represent welcome moves. Does he agree that the Government are pursuing a devolution agenda, which we hope will be reflected further in the draft powers Bill?
Mr. Davey: I think that the Government are doing that, but as the hon. Member for North Essex rightly pointed out, we do not intend to be suckered. We want not only promises and words, but provisions in the draft powers Bill. That is important not only for us and the right hon. Lady, but for the people who will be given the choice. They will want to know that they are voting not for a talking shop, but for something that will be able to make a difference to their lives.
Richard Younger-Ross (Teignbridge) (LD): Hon. Members might be worried about the Government's intentions on the draft powers. Later this afternoon we will debate the Fire and Rescue Services Bill. We had the opportunity to give the elected regional assemblies the same powers that have been given to Wales. The Government declined to go down that path, which implies that they are not as willing as other hon. Members to give powers to the regional assemblies.
Mr. Davey: My hon. Friend is right to suggest caution. We reserve our judgment on such matters, but are keen to see the colour of the Government's money when the draft powers Bill is published later this week.
My third concern with the all-postal vote process is the security statement, which was raised earlier. It is not a matter of such concern that we will vote against the order because, as I told the Minister in other debates on the subject, a referendum does not have an individual candidate so the incentive for fraud is reduced massively. In that respect, I disagree with the hon. Member for North Essex. However, we would have preferred the Government to retain what happened in the pilots—namely, a declaration of identity in a full witness statement. I regret the backsliding on that and hope that fraud will not increase. I am hopeful that when the Electoral Commission makes its statement in early September or possibly late August it picks up that point having read the debate.
I am concerned about the order on expenditure limits, and the Minister was frank in saying that he shares those concerns. We are not convinced that the legislation that established the framework—the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, not the Regional Assemblies (Preparations) Act 2003—is tight enough. There is a danger that a loophole will be exploited in the first test of the 2000 Act as it relates to referendums.
A range of organisations could be set up, register themselves as permitted participants and, under the order, spend £100,000 each. One individual, using friends, relatives and other associates, could set up those organisations, which he would fund to get over his attitude and views. That could undermine the
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democratic process. An individual might try to buy a referendum. The Minister said he would leave it to the Electoral Commission to use its best judgment on that. I hear what he says if we do not have statutory powers to turn to, but it is a concern and both sides of the House are responsible for the mistake of letting a loophole remain in the legislation. I hope that the Minister will say a little more on the Government's thinking because we do not want this important democratic experiment undermined.
Mr. Richard Allan (Sheffield, Hallam) (LD): Does hon. Friend have in mind an individual in Yorkshire who has said that he wants to spend a large amount of money on fighting regional assemblies in the election? There is a clear and present danger that such abuse will take place. It is not just theoretical.
Mr. Davey: I do have an individual in mind. Let me make no bones about it: it is Paul Sykes. The United Kingdom Independence party is under the bizarre belief that the proposal for regional assemblies comes from Europe, but the Liberal Democrats have argued for them for decades, even before we went into the European Union. To be fair, many Labour Members also argued for them. The idea that regional assemblies are proposed by Europe is total nonsense.
Mr. Curry: Paul Sykes is one of my constituents and I have a schizophrenic view of him. I disagree entirely with some of the things on which he wishes to spend his money. In other respects, for all the wrong reasons, he may turn out to do a powerful public good. Is it not a fact, however, that if the matter is left to the discretion of the Electoral Commission, it will become locked into legal proceedings? Someone who sets up an organisation that is challenged or disallowed by the Electoral Commission might decide to go to law to challenge that decision in the absence of clear legislation. That could halt the outcome of the whole procedure.
Mr. Davey: The right hon. Gentleman makes a valid point that had not occurred to me. We face the prospect of confusion and chaos for months after 4 November. That is not in the interests of the Government or others who want to see powers devolved from Whitehall, and it would play into the hands of those who want a centralised system of government in this country. [Interruption.] I give way to one who does.
Mr. Jenkin: We believe in real decentralisation to existing layers of local government; that is the alternative to this regional bureaucracy.
The hon. Gentleman is making a serious contribution on the question of expenses, which of course reads across to other referendums, of even greater importance, that may take place in future. Two things need to be said. First, constraints on expenditure work in elections because candidates aspire to be respectable, responsible people and are in danger of being disqualified if we wilfully overspend. However, in referendums we are dealing with one-off organisations, and perhaps even individuals, who care not for their long-term political reputation but only for the issue, and it is difficult to imagine what sort of constraints would limit their activity if they wished to circumvent whatever rules were in place.
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Secondly, is it not much more of a concern that the Government still have the panoply of the state at their disposal throughout the referendum period? There may be scrupulous rules in place to try to control what they spend money on directly, but the real problem is the fact that the machinery of government is a superb platform from which to make a political case which will have far more influence than any individual.
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