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Tony Lloyd: My hon. Friend and I agree on the analysis but draw different conclusions. He is right that the disparity in spending is a fundamental driver behind the disparities in regional performance, and we must begin to address that point. He also mentioned regional disparities, which raises the question where London fits into the south-east. Unlike the northern regions, Greater London can vocalise and negotiate with central Government.
My hon. Friend's point is important: how do we get the northern voice in the corridors of power? Over successive generations, we have failed in the north under both Labour and Conservative Governments—the disaster up at Daresbury was referred to earlier. Yesterday, the Government made the interesting announcement that Crossrail will go ahead in London and that the Metro system in Greater Manchester is up for serious discussion. If we had a devolved strategy for transport, it would be easier to make the case for Greater Manchester in the debate in the north-west. It would also be easier if a strong northern voice, speaking together and operating together, had debated the matter with central Government, where London's voice is heard. The voice from the north has been consistently ignored over the years by all kinds of Governments.
We have the opportunity to seize control of some of the system, which is what today's debate is all about. Today's debate means that the starting pistol has gone off and that it is down to the people of the northern regions to take control of their own destinies and make their own decisions. If Conservative Members campaign against us, we will have a debate, which will occur where it matters—in the region. We must ensure that the debate takes place in the north-east, Yorkshire and Humberside and the north-west, and that it is dictated by the needs of those regions rather than by the posturing of the various Opposition parties.
Electoral fraud is central to the debate about our electoral system. The system must be respected. As the Minister recognises, worrying issues arose from the recent local elections. They must be investigated, but I must tell those who use the charge of fraud as a reason for not supporting postal voting that the increased turnout is the best single guarantee that we have that the decisions are being made by the public in general, rather than by factional and sectional interest groups. It is important to convey that message.
In fact, our system is relatively free of fraud. That was the case even in the local elections. We should root out every instance of fraud and, if the Electoral Commission says that we must look at certain issues again, we must do so. I emphasise to the Minister that there must be serious exemplary penalties for fraud: fraudsters must know that they will go to prison and that no tolerance
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can be shown to those who are caught and convicted. We must make clear that fraud—which is difficult to prove in the case of both the conventional system and universal postal voting—cannot be tolerated. Nevertheless, we should not confuse the issue and use fraud as an argument against increased participation.
The referendums will be desperately important. We can have different opinions, but in the end it must be left to the people of the northern regions to decide whether this form of devolution takes place. I guarantee to the Minister that, after the draft Bill and beyond, I shall continue to say that we want more and greater powers for our regions. We need those powers.
The debate is a continuous one, but let me say this to the Liberal Democrats. Although they respect devolution to their party in the regions, they should explain to people there in simple terms that, if they miss the opportunity to support the yes campaign, they will betray not just the party but the people of the north.
5.17 pm
Mr. David Curry (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): The only point on which I disagreed with my Front Benchers was the claim that apathy was rife. "Rife" suggests a certain enthusiasm and activity. In a sense, apathy is unrife: no one is very interested.
I occupied the Minister's position when we were trying to extricate ourselves from the problems of local government reorganisation and the Banham review. Looking at the Labour Benches, I have a feeling that the regional agenda is rapidly getting this Government into a situation analogous to ours then. They will be very glad when they can bail themselves out of it.
As I learned when I was trying to take an annuities Bill, which depended on calculations of life expectancy, through the House, life expectancy is overwhelmingly a function of income and education. Of course, on aggregate, certain regions will have a shorter life expectancy than others, but within the regions those in similar social circumstances are likely to have similar life expectancies.
Mr. Stringer: Have not various reports, from the 1981 Black report onwards, said the opposite—that when factors such as age and class are excluded, there are still regional disparities?
Mr. Curry: That does not contradict what I said. It depends on the social and economic composition of the regions involved. I am merely saying that people in similar categories in different regions might well have the same life expectancy.
I feel that the Minister is trying to deliver a wholly undesirable outcome as honourably as possible. Of course, he has had a very busy week. I welcome his efforts to ensure that postal voting does not militate against convenience and equality of opportunity for people in rural areas, but we shall end up with a curious system. There will be peripatetic polling stations and, apparently, peripatetic welfare officers helping people to fill in their forms. Polling stations will open in different places. The outcome will be colourful at least. That does not alter the fact that there will be a denial of choice. Anyone who wants a postal vote can have one under the
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conventional manual system of voting. People have a free choice under that system. There is no analogy between that and the system that is proposed.
The Minister will be aware that, in other countries where postal voting has become the norm, in free elections, the turnout tends to revert to what it was before. The improvement in turnout tends to be temporary. That was the experience in Australia and New Zealand.
With low turnouts, there is always a danger of dealing with the problem by focusing on the process, whereas often the electorate are trying to tell us that we do not seem to be listening to them and that we are not responding to their needs—the substance of the politics needs to be addressed, rather than the process. Politicians may find that unwelcome. Sometimes, the messages are not congenial to hon. Members on both sides of the House. They just happen to be the truth.
The issue of the allocation of expenditure is serious. We discovered in the European elections that the proportional system of representation allowed the expression of a far more diverse range of views than under our traditional first past the post system. In my constituency, the three conventional parties, if I may describe them like that, performed roughly as one may have expected. However, the Green party had a significant vote, the BNP had a reasonably significant vote, and UKIP had a more significant vote, although not as much as in other parts of the country, such as the south-west. In some constituencies, it led the vote.
That means that the number of people contending for designation and the number of players in the campaign could represent a confused picture—quite a kaleidoscope. Because there is no consistency, views on this issue may cut across the normal alliances that one would expect to find on general issues. Therefore, it is possible that one could find oneself in a difficult situation where individuals or even unions seek to express themselves through a number of front organisations. The Electoral Commission would have to decide whether they could be designated. There could be a legal challenge to that designation. Curiously, the equivalent of hanging chads could arrive in our political system, with a great dislocation. I hope that the commission will be able to set out in advance some general principles or rules that it will apply, so that there can be some scrutiny to try to minimise the chances of being challenged on an ad hoc basis, according to who comes forward.
I have great respect for the Minister's honesty but, when he argues against a threshold, he is being perverse. He is saying that we must not set a negative target. Is he saying that he is unconfident of the vote and frightened that, if we set the target of a threshold, we will all set out not to vote in order not to hit the target?
When they decide not to vote, the British people have a powerful determination not to vote. When one canvasses, one finds people who are more resolute about not voting than some people are about voting. The best way to decide something is to vote on it. I will urge all my constituents to vote. Of course I shall tell them to vote no, because I do not want the reorganisation of local government that would be a consequence of a
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regional assembly, and I want to return power to traditional representative bodies. The Minister will know that yesterday I expressed again my personal belief that business rates should be returned to local government, so I am willing to take the necessary steps to make that a reality. However, we are not going to have a threshold, so there is no point in banging on about that. I will not go into the arguments for and against the assemblies because we have debated that. I am sure that we will get a chance to debate the powers. During the September session, everyone usually scrambles around to try to find something useful to do; this would be helpful.
The hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Tony Lloyd) once again used the wonderful phrase, "take control of their destiny." If he thinks that the assemblies will give anybody a handle on their destiny, he is living in a Harry Potteresque world that is a million miles removed from reality. Some might say that the assemblies will lead to some great destiny; others say that they will lead to precisely nothing. In my view, which is well known and frequently quoted—almost entirely by Members on the other side—they are neither "nowt nor summat", to use the great Yorkshire expression. While they are neither nowt nor summat, I want nothing to do with them and I hope that we will vote no tonight.
5.25 pm
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