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Annabelle Ewing (Perth) (SNP): The Minister did not mention that after seven years of a Labour Government, one in four pensioners in Scotland still lives in poverty. Surely the Minister accepts that that is a disgrace. The way forward is to replace means-testing with a decent basic state pension.
Malcolm Wicks: Although I might dispute the figures, I am proud of our achievements and am determined to achieve more in the future. I am not complacent about older people who face hardship and do not re-emphasise the legacy that we inherited simply to make comparisons with the previous Government. Although it is important to remember the context in which this Government have acted, 1997 is history and, thankfully, Britain has moved on.
Mr. Mark Prisk (Hertford and Stortford) (Con): The Minister mentions the economic aspect of the pension credit, but what about its human aspect? Is he ashamed that the Government humiliate 70-year-olds by asking them to give personal details, such as the person with whom they live, to perfect strangers in order to pursue the misguided idea of more and more means-testing? Does he understand how humiliating that is for my constituents and others who, at that time in their life, should not have to do such a thing?
Malcolm Wicks: I do not recognise that portrait. The income-testing of pension credit is a million miles away from old-fashioned means-testing. When I speak to elderly people—I may do that more often than the hon. Gentleman—and hear their experiences of claiming pension credit, which happens over the telephone or, where necessary, by a home visit, I hear nothing but praise for the system, which is a reaction also shown by our surveys. The hon. Gentleman should get out more and talk to older people instead of conspiring with others to present a portrait of pension credit that runs the risk of putting off people who need help.
Conservative Members do not always appear to have moved on, which is why I felt the need to begin my remarks by referring to the 1997 legacy. As the Government have acted, Conservative Members have fought to oppose us. I agree with the hon. Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts) that it would have been nice to
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achieve consensus—I do not agree with Sir Keith Joseph's remark that post-war consensus was a slippery slope to socialism and state control—and he is now a man of consensus who has, in that sense, moved on.
On 8 June 2000, in the House of Commons, the hon. Member for Havant called the winter fuel payment "a gimmick" that the Conservative party would abolish. Well, the winter fuel payment is some gimmick: in the past financial year, winter fuel payments have helped 11.5 million pensioners in about 8 million households by providing £200 at the right time of year, just before Christmas. From last year, households containing someone over 80 years old have received £300. Does the hon. Gentleman still think that the winter fuel payment is a gimmick? I think that it provides important support for all pensioners at the right time of year by taking the fear and the sting out of the arrival of electricity and gas bills.
Mr. Miller: Before my hon. Friend moves on from the 1997 legacy, does he agree that part of that legacy was the way in which the Pensions Act 1995 failed to meet commitments given to this House? Does he agree with me, my right hon. Friends the Members for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) and for Makerfield (Mr. McCartney) and others that people such as the H. H. Robertson workers must be considered sympathetically? Will he closely examine the file on his desk to make sure that those people who were let down by the 1995 Act are protected?
Malcolm Wicks: My hon. Friend has done a great deal to campaign for that group of workers, and I pay tribute to him. Sadly, too many such examples exist and we must examine them carefully. I acknowledge my hon. Friend's remarks about the 1995 Act. I have never made too much of the matter myself because of the complexities of pensions legislation, but we are changing the legacy of the 1995 Act in the Pensions Bill, although I do not want to make a political point about that process.
Mr. Willetts: I want to return to the winter fuel payment because the Minister has mentioned it before and I want to make the position clear. Four years ago, we proposed incorporating the winter fuel payment into a higher state pension, a process by which no pensioner would have lost. That led Labour candidates in the general election to tell pensioners that they would lose their winter fuel payment, without telling them that it would automatically go into their weekly pension payment. That is a typical example of Labour campaigning and we have learned our lesson. We do not propose to change the winter fuel payment in any way, and it will not even be incorporated into the basic state pension.
Malcolm Wicks:
To quote the late, great Roy Orbison, "Running scared"— [Interruption.] Hon. Members will see why I am not in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. As a former Minister for Lifelong Learning, I am encouraged that the hon. Member for Havant has learned his lesson and that the so-called gimmick is now part of Tory strategy—some of us were finding it difficult to get to grips with Tory strategy, but it was only because he was speaking at the time.
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Mr. Tony McWalter (Hemel Hempstead) (Lab/Co-op): Before my hon. Friend took that amusing intervention, he said that he would not make political capital out of the 1995 Act. However, that Act opened a huge gap between those people in pension funds who were already pensioners and were entitled to the assets of the fund, and those who were not yet pensioners and were forced to take whatever leftovers from the table that their fund could provide. The Government have corrected that injustice and I hope that my hon. Friend is extremely proud of that achievement and will never go anywhere near the foul provisions of the 1995 Act.
Malcolm Wicks: We have learned a great deal from the failings of part of the 1995 Act, not least that the minimum funding requirement was nothing of the kind. Much of the new Pensions Bill is about addressing those issues, and I have been suitably chastised for not attacking the Opposition.
David Winnick (Walsall, North) (Lab): Will the Minister give way?
Malcolm Wicks: I am happy to give way to the second ever Labour MP for Croydon, Central.
David Winnick: Prior to 1997, when the Labour Government introduced the winter fuel allowance, the only scheme was the Tories' cold weather payments. In order to be eligible, people had to be on income support, and even then it had to freeze for seven consecutive days before some £8 was paid. Compare that with what we have done in office—the Tories should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
Malcolm Wicks: Again, I would not be complacent because there is still a road to be travelled, but with the winter fuel payment, the home energy efficiency schemes in Scotland and Wales, and the Warm Front scheme in England we are starting to make serious inroads into the horror of the "old and cold" problem, as it has been called, and the problems of fuel poverty. Of course, I am very proud of that.
Now that we have had some clarification of the Conservatives' view of the winter fuel payment, perhaps we can get some help on their view of pension credit. At first, Conservative Members said that they would scrap pension credit. Then they said that they would "reconsider it". [Interruption.] I do not know whether the hon. Member for Havant is denying that they would reconsider it. Then they said that they would keep it. But they continue to carp away at what they describe as an extension of means-testing and still pay no attention to the importance of helping the poorest pensioners; that is a key weakness of their strategy. Indeed, last year the then shadow Chancellor, who is now Leader of the Opposition, conceded that under the Tory plan presented by the shadow Secretary of State,
"Those who are entitled to the pension credit and do claim . . . will not be better off"
under the Tory plan. Perhaps the Opposition spokesman will want to justify that in the wind-ups. We, within an overall strategy on state pensions, want to
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benefit most the poorest and the hard-pressed, who are often women and the older elderly, yet the Leader of the Opposition says, honestly and accurately:
"Those who are entitled to the pension credit and do claim . . . will not be better off".
How does the hon. Member for Havant justify that?
Malcolm Wicks: Perhaps he is about to reconsider.
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