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The Minister for Europe (Mr. Denis MacShane): Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?

Mr. Ancram: No, I will not give way again. I have given way too many times.

Mrs. Browning: Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?

Mr. Ancram: I give way to my hon. Friend. [Hon. Members: "Ah."]

Mrs. Browning: My right hon. and learned Friend is generous. Does he care to reflect on the fact that if we had gone down the route of mutual recognition of goods and services rather than harmonisation when we entered the single market we would not have the problems that we have today? It is of course on that basis that the EU trades in quite a harmonious way with many countries outside the EU.

Mr. Ancram: Obviously this is a matter of debate, but one of the main problems facing the single market has
 
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been the failure to implement the Lisbon criteria, which largely related to deregulation. The French were less keen to deregulate some of their industries and businesses in a way that would have helped the single market. I hope that that is one of the things on which we can make progress.

Mr. MacShane: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way? We are in a debate.

Mr. Ancram: I have given way an awful lot; at least as many times as the Foreign Secretary. The last time that I gave way to him I was in a seated position for some time thereafter while he tried to make his second speech.

Mr. Straw: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?

Mr. Ancram: As long as he is not going to make his third speech, I will give way to the Foreign Secretary once more.

Mr. Straw: The right hon. Gentleman speaks about the importance of pursuing the Lisbon reforms. How would the change in the constitution that he proposes, by which any five member states—however small—could veto existing reforms as well as block all changes, ensure progress towards a really well-functioning internal market?

Mr. Ancram: Again, if the right hon. Gentleman is going to use something, he must read it correctly. What we are talking about is legislation where subsidiarity is at stake. In our manifesto, on which we fought the European elections successfully, we made it clear that the single market would have to be treated in a different way due to the need for uniformity in that market.

Allied to the need to reform the single market, we also need to look frankly and sincerely at what is done well at the European level and what is done badly. The common fisheries policy has been a total failure. Jobs have been slashed, our fisheries have been plundered, and our fishermen find that there is little that national politicians can do about it. That is the European democratic deficit in action. That is why we intend to restore our fisheries to local and national control. It is also why we want to restore our opt-out from the social chapter, so that we here in this Parliament, not the European Council or Commission, can decide what is and is not right for our country and our employment laws.

I want Europe to succeed, but as a partnership of sovereign nations, not as an emerging superpower. I want Europe to be reformed so that it delivers better what the people of Europe want from it—peace and prosperity. That is another reason why we reject this constitution. Its provisions are rooted in an outdated concept of a social Europe that will damage Europe's prospects for prosperity. That is why the director of the Confederation of British Industry has said that:

"this constitution does nothing to make Europe more globally competitive."

That is why the director of the Institute of Directors said of the charter that
 
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"far from clarifying employment rights, this leaves business facing worrying uncertainty".

That is why the Federation of Small Businesses has said:

"we are concerned that the constitution may lead to a surge in red tape."

Now that we will have a referendum—I am grateful for that—the people of Britain will decide. I believe that the constitution speaks for itself. I therefore challenge the Government in the run-up to the referendum not to write propagandist White Papers but to send every household in Britain a full copy of the constitution so that people can read it for themselves. [Laughter.] Labour Members laugh, but that is what the French did when they held a referendum on the Maastricht treaty. They obviously take the view that French people are better able to comprehend constitutional treaties than the British. I do not take that view because I believe that if the British people read the constitution they would see clearly where the truth of this issue lies, which is why I suspect that the Government will duck my challenge.

Nor can I see any merit in delaying the promised referendum. The information is now all there. We will fight this constitution tooth and nail. The Conservatives are ready to accept the Prime Minister's challenge. Let us get on with it and let battle be joined now.

Several hon. Members rose—

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Before I call the next hon. Member, I remind the House that Mr. Speaker has placed a 10-minute limit on all Back-Bench speeches, and that starts from now.

2.38 pm

Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): We now for the first time have an actual text, so theoretically the debate that everyone has been calling for—one free of myth and distortions—can start to take place. From what we have heard so far, I do not think it has quite started yet. Both sides seem to be creating their own fantasy world, which they then defend. If our debates are to be enlightened, it is incumbent on us all to support any assertion as to what is in the treaty by making a reference to where it is in the text.

In that context, I hope that, in his winding-up speech, the Minister for Europe will point to two areas about which I have been puzzled in the last hour or so. One is where the treaty specifies that if there is a conflict between a European Court of Human Rights judgment and the charter, the ECHR will take precedent. It is my clear recollection that one of the arguments employed as to why it was not sufficient for the European Union once it had acquired single legal personality simply to sign up to that convention was that the charter of fundamental rights was creating a new kind of human rights which went beyond what we had before. I shall be happy and grateful to accept the argument that that has been settled, but I have not found it in the document.

The second matter, which again I hear repeated time and time again, was not in the White Paper, although the Foreign Secretary referred to it in his speech. He referred to a specific procedure for repatriation of competences. There is a chink that would allow for that
 
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to happen, as I read it, but I have not yet found a specific procedure. I would have expected it to be at least a separate article. Because of the sequence in which we have been called, I shall also be interested at some stage to know the view of the Liberal Democrats, who as I understand it are now in favour of the possibility that competences might, if appropriate, be repatriated to member states. Are they happy with the provisions in the constitution?

Konrad Adenauer, a great European, was once challenged about something that he had said in the past. He told the journalist that he was not the slightest bit interested in what he had said last week. We could go on for weeks reminding each other about what we have said in the past, but that is not the point. We now have one document that brings together the past in a new form, and we need to look at the merits of what is in front of us. All sides have changed their mind at some time in the past 50 years, because the facts have changed, so we should focus on what is now before us.

I shall examine the specific issue of the role of national Parliaments. The language in the White Paper is modest and appropriate. It refers to involving national Parliaments much more in EU debate. That is a neutral statement, but I keep hearing that it has been strengthened. I wonder whether that has happened and, more to the point, whether we are capable of rising to the challenge as our institution stands. I chaired a working group on the role of national Parliaments and I gave evidence in France, Portugal and Scandinavia. I also attended the Western European Union. I have given considerable thought to the issue.

Let us consider what the constitution says. Article I-9 says that national Parliaments shall "ensure compliance" with the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality. Article I-17 is a flexibility clause that requires that the European Commission

"shall draw Member States' national Parliaments' attention to proposals".

Article I-57, on applications for membership by states, says that national Parliaments shall be "notified of this application". Article III-161 states that national Parliaments

"shall be informed of the content and results of the evaluation".

The language is important. However, information and notification do not amount to power or a strengthening of the position of national Parliaments unless we are capable of using that power. There is some very good news for national Parliaments. For example, article I-23 requires that the

"Council shall meet in public when it deliberates and votes on Union legislative and non-legislative activities."

That is important because for the first time we will know what positions Ministers have taken.

Article IV-7 looks at simplified ratification procedures. That was the old 24(4) clause to which I violently objected. On its own, it would have been sufficient to cause me to reject the constitution. It has been strengthened, but it means that the move from unanimity to qualified majority voting can only happen provided that national Parliaments do not disagree. I tried to make the point when I intervened in the speech
 
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by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary that we must be much more precise about the mechanism that this House will use to form an opinion.

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