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Mr. Straw: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is making an important point. I have thought long and hard about this. There is a point where the formula for the intervention of national Parliaments collides with the arrangements for qualified majority voting or indeed for the veto, and if there were a formula by which two thirds of national Parliaments could prevent a move, that would actually change the nature of majority voting.
Mr. Straw: No, because under these proposals, 46 per cent. of national Governments will be able to block a proposal in any event. I happen to think that that is a satisfactory way of proceeding.
Sir Menzies Campbell: There has been some emphasis on the role of Parliaments rather than the role of Governments, and I am one of those who in such matters rather believes that the more national Parliaments have responsibilities in this area, the better it will be. Here I to some extent agree with what the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) said about the extent to which our enthusiasm for scrutiny, and our consciousness in this Parliament of what comes out of the European Union, falls a long way below the standard to which we should aspire. I do not for a moment excuse myself from that stricture. As a Parliament, we have certain mechanisms for scrutiny, but I doubt whether there is anyone in the House who imagines that they are as good as they might be, and I think the suggestions that the hon. Lady made for their enhancement are entirely sensible. Perhaps, as the Foreign Secretary has agreed, it will be possible to consider the matter when we come to the legislation that we are all anticipating with so much enthusiasm.
Certainly, as far as the proposals relate to the running of the European Union, fewer Commissioners, clearer legislation and freedom of information must all be regarded as positive measures.
On competences, the treaty contains a definition of the limits of competences, and the stipulation that competences not conferred remain with the member states is a necessary, helpful and welcome clarification. Previously there was a presumption in favour of member state competence, but now there is an express statement.
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On a common asylum policy, we in the United Kingdom have opted out of the Schengen agreement, and therefore we maintain control of our own borders. However, it is in no way against our interests—indeed, one can argue that it is most certainly part of our interests—to seek common standards and rules for asylum seekers to achieve two things: first, to prevent asylum shopping and, secondly, to enable greater burden sharing between member states.
On the common foreign and security policy, the reform proposals in the constitution are entirely sensible and much needed—not all hon. Members would necessarily agree—in the wake of Iraq and the circumstances in which military action was taken, and as a recognition of the fact that the United States is increasingly willing to adopt independent action in foreign affairs. I do not think that anyone can challenge the proposition that the United Kingdom, acting with other nations, is likely to achieve more. I believe that a dedicated foreign representative, combining the roles of the external relations commissioner and foreign envoy, is needed. I always thought the distinction between Mr. Solana and Chris Patten was artificial. Indeed, that was demonstrated on many occasions because it seemed necessary for both of them to have some part in the activities carried on by the European Union.
Also on the common foreign and security policy, not only is the United States more anxious and more willing to take independent, even pre-emptive action, but as President Bush's announcement on the withdrawal of troops shows, perhaps the United States will not in future regard providing men, women and matériel on the European continent as an overwhelming obligation to deal with any security issue or action of that kind.
Of course, a number of myths are attached to all this. One of the most extraordinary myths is the idea that the United Kingdom seat on the Security Council is somehow at risk. The Foreign Secretary cited the example of Germany, which is running a most robust and vigorous campaign for its own seat, but of course, he might have cited the example of France. Can one envisage President Chirac voluntarily saying that, as part of the necessary reforms to the United Nations, France is willing to step aside to ensure that the EU has a permanent seat on the Security Council? There is not a hope in hell of that, frankly. Therefore, the notion that the United Kingdom's seat would be at risk is wholly unfounded, not least, of course, since we are talking about constitutions, because the UK's seat is a product of the constitution of the UN—a product of the charter. Whatever responsibilities the EU, or even the European Court of Justice, may be thought to have, modifying the charter of the UN, so far, is not one of them.
Ms Stuart: We must be really careful when we try to predict the future. An equally good argument can be made that serious reform of the UN is on the books and that America may decide on such a reform to give Europe a seat and India or China a seat. It is easy to dismiss such things as nonsense, but the world is changing and such changes are possible.
Sir Menzies Campbell:
I guess that all hon. Members would subscribe to reform of the UN, but people will remember that, for a long time, discussions about reform were stalled on whether the Security Council
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should have 23 or 24 members. The likelihood of early reform is pretty remote, even though Kofi Annan, as we all know, has established a high-level group of senior and experienced politicians and diplomats, all of whom are due to report by the end of the year. However, one thing is certain, and let me put it in the framework of this document: the idea that the constitutional document puts at risk Britain's permanent membership of the UN simply does not ring true; it holds no water whatsoever.
Let me deal quickly with defence. No European army will result from what is proposed. There is no suggestion that we cannot do other than deploy our own forces according to our own determination of what constitutes our own interests, but greater co-operation in defence matters is obviously of advantage for the countries of the EU. As I have said, the proposed operations that provide the EU with both an opportunity and a test are a clear illustration of what can be achieved.
As I have said, I find little with which to disagree with the Foreign Secretary on. I do not think it likely that we will have a referendum before the general election, which, although not fixed finally, may come in May or the spring of next year.
Sir Menzies Campbell: It need not come until 2006, but I doubt whether some of those who have found themselves called back to the colours have taken on their new responsibilities on the understanding that they will be co-ordinating a general election campaign between now and 2006. It would have been interesting for a whole variety of reasons—not least the date—to be party to those discussions.
Sir Menzies Campbell: That is a cri de coeur.
When the document is finally put before the people of the United Kingdom, I hope it will be done on a properly informed basis. I am not sure whether we can send everyone a copy of the constitution, but I recall the referendum of 1975 when proper arrangements were made for documents illustrating both sides of the argument, and it certainly would be incumbent on any Government who seek an affirmative vote in such a referendum, as we understand that this Government will, to ensure that the principles of fairness, proper understanding and information about what is proposed are applied during the referendum.
I suspect that the issue will be not about the detail of those matters that concern us, such as the terms of titles and the role the European Court of Justice. I suspect that the debate will be about whether people are for Europe or against Europe.
Sir Menzies Campbell:
I hope that the hon. Gentleman is successful in achieving the degree of detail that he thinks he will impose on the debate, but I find it difficult to believe that the capacity of the British people in these matters is so unlimited that, for example, the kind of discussions that we have had today and on
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previous occasions will be the sort of discussion that they have in their own minds before they come to cast their votes.
Mr. Davidson: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
Sir Menzies Campbell: No. I am about to finish.
The choice will be pretty clear: to stay in the EU and be part of its modernisation, or alternatively, to take a step that would ultimately result in leaving it. My belief is that the people of the United Kingdom can be persuaded that the former course of action is in their interests, and it is that course that I will be happy to urge on them, particularly in the company of the Foreign Secretary.
3.18 pm
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