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Mr. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): Nine years.
Sir Teddy Taylor: I apologise for my mistake.
What can be done? If the Court of Auditors is being asked to do something—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman has had his time.
3.32 pm
Mr. Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): The Irish presidency inaugurated on 1 January strove to complete negotiations on the treaty by June 2004. On 1 May, the EU expanded to 25 member states—another major EU milestone. After heated negotiations the draft constitutional treaty or constitution was finally agreed on 18 June.
The aim is to sign the constitution on 29 October, and it is to be ratified in due course by all 25 member states. It will result in the largest ever recourse to citizens' opinions in open referendums across the European Union. The Prime Minister's announcement of the decision to consult British citizens has created widespread concern about a possible rejection of the constitution in the UK. As I have said in the House
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before, I do not believe that a referendum is necessary, but it is nevertheless important in the eyes of the public, particularly if the single currency is to be introduced here, that arguments about our role in Europe and the ratification of the constitution are settled, and a referendum is probably the best way of doing so.
Although, as I said, a referendum on the draft constitutional treaty may not be a necessity, we are where we are. The countries that have decided to hold a referendum are those like Belgium, France and the United Kingdom. Many more countries are undecided or have decided not to hold a referendum. In terms of UK traditions, many hon. Members—I am one of them—take the view that the general public elect politicians to make decisions on their behalf.
Much of the detail and the minutiae that are bread and butter to Members of the House are not of great interest to the general public. There has been a fall in turnout at successive elections and a general lack of interest in many of the issues that we discuss. Nevertheless, now that a referendum is to be called, we have a duty to try and reinvigorate debate and get the public interested in subjects that are very important to their future and which have had a huge impact on their lives over the past 50-odd years, although many of them may not have noticed it.
Belgium's referendum will be consultative, not binding. Perhaps we should introduce some sort of threshold for our referendum, so that if the turnout falls below a certain figure—for example, 50 or 51 per cent.—the outcome will not be seen to be binding. It is important that any serious changes that are made as a result of a referendum be carried out with the support of the majority of the British people.
On the need for a constitution, other speakers have alluded to the succession of treaties that we have seen. The draft constitution is a consolidation of existing treaties. Some have called it a rulebook. Colleagues have referred to it as a tidying-up exercise. It is indeed a very big tidying-up exercise. To consolidate all those treaties in a document of just over 100 pages is a huge achievement and a considerable simplification. For the life of me I cannot understand why the official Opposition should object to producing a document 100 pages long that will make the operation of a European Union of 25 member states far more efficient than do the existing rulebooks, which must constantly be cross-referenced.
Mr. Walter: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has a different copy of the treaty, but mine has 164 pages.
Mr. Hendrick: Including the protocols and so on would bring the number of pages to about 160, but as regards the substantive issues that will concern people in a referendum, we can safely say that not all 160-odd pages will be considered by the general public.
The simplification is extremely important. For an effective Union of 25 member states, it is essential that we get the treaty through. The campaign needs to reflect that. The constitution will make possible a far better division of Union and member state competences. We will see the attribution of a legal personality to the Union. The instruments of action will be greatly
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simplified. There will be measures to increase EU democracy, transparency and efficiency. The contribution of national Parliaments will be extended, as those of us who were involved with the Scrutiny Committee appreciate. Opposition to the constitution seems strange, given that the constitution gives national Parliaments a greater role than ever before.
Improving the structure, enhancing the role of institutions and, in particular, taking into account the consequences of enlargement will be a huge boost to the EU's future operation.
Enlargement is important to the development of the EU, which is why the Nice treaty was negotiated. I shall reiterate the point that I made earlier to the right hon. and learned Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram): holding a referendum on the Nice treaty, which the Conservative party proposed, with a view to voting down that treaty would not have been conducive to EU enlargement to 25 member states.
The constitution will bring the EU closer to the citizens. By its very nature, the single document is more understandable for those who want to take the time to read it before casting their vote in the referendum. A recent Eurobarometer poll shows falling support for EU membership—nowadays, support for EU membership is below 50 per cent.—and we must make the case for Europe, which has not happened in this country for nearly 30 years.
A YouGov poll for The Sunday Times on 20 June shows the widespread misconceptions about the constitution's meaning. For example, 51 per cent. of respondents thought that the constitution would give the EU the power to control UK taxes, which is not the case, and 47 per cent. thought that we would be forced to join the euro, which is also not the case. Some 58 per cent. thought that Britain could no longer have its own independent policy on asylum seekers under the constitution, but the Conservative party has not mentioned that that matter would be subject to majority voting by which Britain could effectively opt out, and the press have not caught that point either. In that poll, 61 per cent. thought that the constitution means that the UK must change its laws on trade unions and strikes, and 46 per cent. thought that Britain would need EU approval before fighting a war. We know that all those points are false.
The poll also shows that although the public are against the constitution—asked how they would vote if the referendum were held now, 23 per cent. of respondents said that they would vote in favour and 49 per cent. said that they would vote against—that view is clearly based on misinformation. As elected politicians, we have a duty to challenge and dispel those myths. Certain newspapers do not want to let the facts get in the way of a good story and to make sure that the constitution is defeated.
Mr. Hopkins:
Is my hon. Friend not making light of the public's opinion and common sense? I shall vote no
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in the referendum, and I do not think that I am ill informed. Indeed, certain newspapers support my hon. Friend's view.
Mr. Hendrick: I am sure that my hon. Friend is well informed, and I hope that the public are well informed by the end of the campaign.
Returning to the YouGov poll, when the public were asked to identify the things that matter most about the constitution, 60 per cent. said deciding tax rates, 52 per cent. said not being forced to join the euro, 38 per cent. said deciding policy on asylum seekers, 33 per cent. said deciding on military action and 32 per cent. said the right to leave the EU. Although debating individual articles or clauses may be the bread and butter of our intercourse in this Chamber, what is said in the Dog and Duck is different from our discussion.
Once the debate begins among the general public, I want to see an informed discussion. One of my hon. Friends made the point that factual documents based on the arguments for and arguments against should be made available so that genuine criticism, rather than misinformation and myths, can be levelled against the constitution. The case against the constitution is weak and it should not win the argument, but it is our job to defeat it and not to let people peddle myths and lies.
3.45 pm
Mr. Robert Walter (North Dorset) (Con): Some of my right hon. and hon. Friends may be a little surprised by what I say in the next 10 minutes. However, they will not be surprised by my reasons for saying it, because they are the same as those that I advanced in favour of a referendum on the constitution.
I have been a great supporter of our membership of the European Union ever since we joined, but I am seriously concerned that in those 30 years we have failed to take the people with us on the journey that we have made in its development and evolution. We have now reached a stage where the people as a whole have little understanding and little confidence in what is being done in their name. That Euroscepticism is not unique to Britain—it exists right across Europe. The democratic deficit seems worse in some other European states because people feel that it is inevitable and that they can do nothing about it. With the draft constitution, they will have the opportunity to send a message to the political elites of Europe that they would like somebody to stop and explain what is going on and what has been done in their name over the past 30 years, in our case—somewhat longer in the case of some other member states.
For all the spin that the Foreign Secretary put on the draft treaty, neither it nor the 50 pages of the White Paper provide the answer. When I read the Laeken declaration in 2001, I thought that we were beginning to go in the right direction and to pose some of the right questions. When I read the treaty—all 164 pages of it—I remembered that the one phrase in the Laeken declaration that stands out is
"simplification of the Union's instruments".
There is no simplification in this document. It has so much detail that one could hardly describe it as a constitution—it is a management textbook. Section 2, on page 65, deals with policies on border checks, asylum
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and immigration. It goes into great detail about "integrated management systems". I love this phrase about the European Parliament in article II-38:
"It shall meet, without requiring to be convened, on the second Tuesday in March."
That is not what one would expect in a simplifying treaty—it is the sort of minutiae of management detail that one would expect those who are responsible for looking after our interests to be able to come up with as a modus operandi.
Much of what is in this document could soon be out of date and we will be back in another intergovernmental conference debating yet another constitutional treaty to bring all the verbiage up to date. What we need is what Laeken talked about—to be able to create European institutions that
"must be brought closer to"
"citizens. Citizens undoubtedly support the Union's broad aims, but they do not always see a connection between those goals and the Union's everyday action."
We all know that Europe has changed and is changing. It now has 25 member states, with the 10 new countries that joined this year.
We all face new challenges, not least securing Europe's borders against terrorism, illegal immigration and international crime. However, in the spirit of the Laeken declaration, we need a treaty that will make the enlarged European Union of 25 countries more effective, thereby allowing us to achieve more together than we can alone, without giving up our independence. It should make the EU more democratic, put national Governments firmly in the driving seat and give national Parliaments more say over European decisions.
The enlarged Europe needs to be more effective and democratic and we therefore need a simple and transparent constitutional treaty. The constitution was supposed to consolidate the existing treaties into a single document, with the aim of clarifying the EU's rules and making them more accessible to voters.
I believe that an effective EU is in Britain's interest and that it is also in our national interest to be a member of the EU. We have many aims in common and can achieve more together than alone, making us all richer, safer and more influential. However, even before the recent enlargement, we were struggling to cope with the rules and institutions because, as has been said, they were those of the six. The EU desperately needs modernising and we desperately need a new treaty that simplifies matters and makes the EU more effective, without the sacrifice of our national independence.
A new treaty should spell out in black and white the powers of the various parties. It should explicitly state that the EU has only the powers that member states choose to grant it. It should clarify what the EU can and cannot do.
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